Interview with Gerry Adams




       
       
       
 
 
 
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                                 ON THE RECORD 
 
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1                                 DATE:  1.10.95
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HUMPHRYS:                              And, now to that other conference - across the 
water. Sinn Fein met only twenty four hours after the IRA had issued a very 
hardline statement: forget about getting rid of our weapons; that's ludicrous. 
 
                                       That put a lot of pressure on Gerry 
Adams, the Nationalist most identified with the peace process. I'll be talking 
to him in a few minutes but first Laura Trevelyan asks what room for manoeuvre 
Mr. Adams truly has.                
                            
                            *******
                               
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So Gerry Adams, we have a deadlock in 
the peace process, we also have a number of suggestions as to how you might get 
around or over that, let's have a look first at the notion of a Northern 
Ireland Assembly of which it seems the Irish Government approves.  Why not?, 
why not take part in a Northern Ireland Assembly and then you'd be able to talk 
to the Unionists as you wanted? 
 
GERRY ADAMS:                           Well first of all John, if I can set the 
record straight in your very revisionist history of the peace process.  This 
peace process started some long time ago and culminated fourteen months ago in 
the IRA taking an historically generous initiative.  It called the complete 
cessation of military operations.   It did so on the basis that there was an 
opportunity at that time to build peace.  Now for the last fourteen months we 
have had the IRA's guns silenced, the Loyalists were also persuaded, although 
they continued with some activity, but the Loyalists were also persuaded to 
silence their guns.  This new precondition is exactly that.  It is a new 
precondition brought on to the agenda by the British. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Yes but you're answering a question that 
I didn't ask you.   
 
ADAMS:                                 But I'm sorry, I mean people in 
this country are very rarely informed fully of the situation in Ireland.  David 
Trimble, for example, has said that he will not be involved in talks with Sinn 
Fein unless the IRA disband and are totally disarmed in a ... way.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But, on the other hand, we have this 
suggestion that there could be some sort of Northern Ireland Assembly in which 
you might take part.  Now, why not say: what have you got to lose by saying: 
alright, we will do that? 
 
ADAMS:                                 Well, first of all, if there are 
Elections called, of course, Sinn Fein will contest those elections, along with 
the other Parties.  But, both governments - the British government and the 
Irish government, the SDLP and ourselves and, I think, also, the Unionists have 
recognised that an internal settlement is not a solution, that we can't go back 
to the old Stormont days.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              It wouldn't be the old Stormont, would 
it? 
 
ADAMS:                                 I'm sorry, no, please, please let me 
finish because David Trimble also said: let Sinn Fein go and get a mandate.  
Sinn Fein have a mandate and that's what we're seeking to bring to the 
negotiating table and your reporter said that this demand for decommission was 
preventing Sinn Fein from coming to All Party talks.  That isn't accurate.  His 
demand is preventing the Irish Government, Sinn Fein, the SDLP and all the 
other Parties from coming to All Party talks.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Then if you have that mandate, there's 
no reason at all why you shouldn't test it again at the Polls? 
 
ADAMS:                                 I don't have any problem testing our 
mandate.  None at all.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So, Okay.  It is .. a real possibility 
that you could have elections to a Northern Ireland Assembly, in which you 
would take part and then you will be able to sit down and use that as the 
forum for talking to the Unionists? 
 
ADAMS:                                 John, John, we have discussions now 
with the Unionists in councils all over the North and we got that by having to 
take about ten Court injunctions, to get the Unionists to recognise the 
rights of voters.  Sinn Fein is..now receives the largest number of votes in 
Belfast City.  We had to bring the Unionists to Court to get Catholic children 
in Ballymurphy the right to a playground.  So, let's not go into very long 
and diversionary distractions.  What we need is without preconditions 
whatsoever.... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              I don't know why it's diversionary.  I 
mean, it was something that you heard the Dublin government there saying: 
... 
 
ADAMS:                                 ....well I heard the leader of one of 
the coalition Parties, who's engaged law and political opportunism more than 
anything else, saying he's interested in that idea and I mean what I want to 
focus in on is the need for inclusive dialogue, without preconditions.  Now, 
why fourteen months into this end of hostilities - and the British have yet to 
call an end to hostilities - why two or three years into this peace 
process has there not been a coming together of all the political Parties.  
Sorry, John, please, I could put preconditions upon David Trimble.  I could put 
preconditions upon John Major, Members of my Party - those who vote for our 
Party, supporters of our Party - have been killed and injured as a result of 
the activities of Unionist death squads and as a result of the activities of 
the British Army.  I don't want to do that.  I want to move forward, to make 
sure that none of those things ever happen again.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Let me offer you another suggestion as 
to how you might do that.  The IRA has said absolutely no question of handing 
over weapons at this stage.  Now, what about the suggestion that the 
Commission, the Independent Commission - perhaps, chaired by an American 
Senator is set up and that as you enter into discussions with that Commission, 
the IRA hands over some of its weapons.  Now, do you think that that makes 
sense?  Looking at it from your position. 
 
ADAMS:                                 Well, first of all, can I tell you - 
and I said this six months ago - Sinn Fein has no room, whatsover to manoeuvre 
on this issue.  There are six armed groups in this situation.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Can I just.... 
 
ADAMS:                                 Excuse me just John...  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              I'd just like to clarify this because 
I'm not asking you whether you've got any weapons.  I don't want to get into 
that debate what I'm saying is...
 
ADAMS:                                 But you have to let me talk you see if 
you want me...you know... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But, I'm trying to.... 
 
ADAMS:                                 You could, perhaps, do the interview 
without me.  Then, you wouldn't have to ask me any questions at all.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              No.  I'm genuinely trying to be helpful 
here.  If you have those six groups watching this programme, listening to 
what you have to say, it might, might it not, be helpful for you to say 'I, 
Gerry Adams, President of Sinn Fein, think that's not a bad idea." 
 
ADAMS:                                 Well, whatever I think about the 
situation, the problem is that we will not get into All Party talks according 
to the British Government unless a group over which Sinn Fein has no control, 
over which the SDLP has no control, over which the Irish Government has no 
control, unless that group surrenders its weapons. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You have influence. 
 
ADAMS:                                 And what the British Government are 
trying to do is to almost subvert this peace process. In my view, because 
militarists who fought in Ireland, or who were in charge of a war policy in 
Ireland for twenty-five years are still seeking to win some sort of outdated 
and unviable and unachievable military victory.  What we want to do is to build 
peace.  Now, obviously, disarmament..a disarmament of all the groups, the 
disbandment of all the armed groups, a total demilitarisation of the situation 
is an objective of the peace process.  It's an achievable one, in my view.  
But what we have had here for the last number of months is a very achievable 
and necessary objective being turned into an obstacle and if we can't get 
into talks then we can't make peace.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              And what I'm offering you here is this 
suggestion of one way around that, that is to say that you, given that you 
don't have the weapons at your immediate disposal - I take your point about 
that because you make it very many times - but you are in a position as leader 
of Sinn Fein to say: look, I think this isn't a bad idea.  Let's have that 
commission and then maybe I think it would be very helpful if the IRA were to 
give up its weapons or some of its weapons at the door to the Commission.    
 
ADAMS:                                 Well I think and I've been told by many 
others wiser than I, that politics is the art of the possible.  We persuaded 
people who were engaged in armed struggle to cease their armed struggle.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, there you are.  You can persuade 
them in other directions as well.  
 
ADAMS:                                 No.  Excuse me.  That requires the two 
main sides in this conflict because it's an Anglo-Irish conflict.  The British 
and their allies and the Loyalist section of our people and the Republicans and 
Nationalists.  That requires both those groups to be prepared to come to the 
table to make peace.  Now, in the last fourteen months, we have seen the 
British retaining military strength at the same level as it was in 1992.  We 
have seen no movement on prisoners and here in Britain we have seen conditions 
for Irish prisoners deteriorating.  We have seen Orange Marchers being forced 
through Catholic areas, where they weren't welcome; we have seen no attempt to 
even address the issue of policing - which is a very vexed issue.  We've seen 
repressive legislation reimposed by the British and we aren't even addressing 
the issues about the future.  You talked earlier about the need for a new 
Britain.  Now, why can't we have a new Ireland?  Why can't the British 
Government and you, as interviewer in this situation appear to be attempting to 
play the role of a broker, which is okay for an interviewer but it isn't OK for 
your Prime Minister. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well what I'm doing is offering you 
suggestions and trying to gauge your reaction, your response to those 
questions? 
 
ADAMS:                                 But, you're offering me suggestions 
which are aimed at processing a British precondition which ... 
HUMPHRYS:                              But then other questions will be asked 
of the British Government and are constantly being asked of the British 
government.  Right now, you are there.  
 
ADAMS:                                 I would love, John, to listen to your 
programme next week and to hear John Major - and you talked to John Prescott 
about everything but the question of Ireland - to hear the British Labour Party 
leadership asked is it going to squander this unprecedented opportunity for 
peace? 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              We have asked both parties many times...
... but right now it's you sitting there and you're the Leader of Sinn Fein and 
that's why I'm putting these points to you.  And, one other, if I may, before 
wemove on.   This other suggestion that the IRA, as it were, should declare 'no 
first use' - the Unionist paramilitaries have done that, why should not the 
IRA do that?  Do you think that might be a helpful idea? 
                                                                                
ADAMS:                                 Well, I think the IRA did almost 
fourteen months ago.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              No.  I used the word 'permanent'. 
 
ADAMS:                                 Excuse me.  Look, I want to answer this 
question in two ways, if I may.  First of all, the Loyalists are still arming - 
that's first of all.  Secondly, a large percentage of the weapons that they 
have were given to them by British military intelligence; secondly, I meet RUC 
men in areas where they are most unwelcome.  Now, if the British Prime Minister 
is prepared to have enough confidence in the IRA to put his policemen in those 
hostile areas, then he should have the courage to enter into talks.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              David Trimble has said: if you've got 
any new suggestions to regenerate, revitalise this peace process he'd like to 
hear them.  In thirty seconds, have you got one? 
 
ADAMS:                                 Well, let David Trimble stop talking at 
me and start talking to me and between the two of us and all the other Parties 
involved, we'll find a way out of this impasse.  Let David Trimble keep saying: 
not an inch, no surrender, echoing the rhetoric of the British Prime Minister, 
then the peace process remains in considerable difficulty. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But at the moment, it looks deadlocked, 
eh?   
 
ADAMS:                                 Because the British Government are 
refusing to move. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Gerry Adams, thanks very much.  
 
ADAMS:                                 Thank you John. 
 
 
 
 
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