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ON THE RECORD
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 1.10.95
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HUMPHRYS: And, now to that other conference - across the
water. Sinn Fein met only twenty four hours after the IRA had issued a very
hardline statement: forget about getting rid of our weapons; that's ludicrous.
That put a lot of pressure on Gerry
Adams, the Nationalist most identified with the peace process. I'll be talking
to him in a few minutes but first Laura Trevelyan asks what room for manoeuvre
Mr. Adams truly has.
*******
HUMPHRYS: So Gerry Adams, we have a deadlock in
the peace process, we also have a number of suggestions as to how you might get
around or over that, let's have a look first at the notion of a Northern
Ireland Assembly of which it seems the Irish Government approves. Why not?,
why not take part in a Northern Ireland Assembly and then you'd be able to talk
to the Unionists as you wanted?
GERRY ADAMS: Well first of all John, if I can set the
record straight in your very revisionist history of the peace process. This
peace process started some long time ago and culminated fourteen months ago in
the IRA taking an historically generous initiative. It called the complete
cessation of military operations. It did so on the basis that there was an
opportunity at that time to build peace. Now for the last fourteen months we
have had the IRA's guns silenced, the Loyalists were also persuaded, although
they continued with some activity, but the Loyalists were also persuaded to
silence their guns. This new precondition is exactly that. It is a new
precondition brought on to the agenda by the British.
HUMPHRYS: Yes but you're answering a question that
I didn't ask you.
ADAMS: But I'm sorry, I mean people in
this country are very rarely informed fully of the situation in Ireland. David
Trimble, for example, has said that he will not be involved in talks with Sinn
Fein unless the IRA disband and are totally disarmed in a ... way.
HUMPHRYS: But, on the other hand, we have this
suggestion that there could be some sort of Northern Ireland Assembly in which
you might take part. Now, why not say: what have you got to lose by saying:
alright, we will do that?
ADAMS: Well, first of all, if there are
Elections called, of course, Sinn Fein will contest those elections, along with
the other Parties. But, both governments - the British government and the
Irish government, the SDLP and ourselves and, I think, also, the Unionists have
recognised that an internal settlement is not a solution, that we can't go back
to the old Stormont days.
HUMPHRYS: It wouldn't be the old Stormont, would
it?
ADAMS: I'm sorry, no, please, please let me
finish because David Trimble also said: let Sinn Fein go and get a mandate.
Sinn Fein have a mandate and that's what we're seeking to bring to the
negotiating table and your reporter said that this demand for decommission was
preventing Sinn Fein from coming to All Party talks. That isn't accurate. His
demand is preventing the Irish Government, Sinn Fein, the SDLP and all the
other Parties from coming to All Party talks.
HUMPHRYS: Then if you have that mandate, there's
no reason at all why you shouldn't test it again at the Polls?
ADAMS: I don't have any problem testing our
mandate. None at all.
HUMPHRYS: So, Okay. It is .. a real possibility
that you could have elections to a Northern Ireland Assembly, in which you
would take part and then you will be able to sit down and use that as the
forum for talking to the Unionists?
ADAMS: John, John, we have discussions now
with the Unionists in councils all over the North and we got that by having to
take about ten Court injunctions, to get the Unionists to recognise the
rights of voters. Sinn Fein is..now receives the largest number of votes in
Belfast City. We had to bring the Unionists to Court to get Catholic children
in Ballymurphy the right to a playground. So, let's not go into very long
and diversionary distractions. What we need is without preconditions
whatsoever....
HUMPHRYS: I don't know why it's diversionary. I
mean, it was something that you heard the Dublin government there saying:
...
ADAMS: ....well I heard the leader of one of
the coalition Parties, who's engaged law and political opportunism more than
anything else, saying he's interested in that idea and I mean what I want to
focus in on is the need for inclusive dialogue, without preconditions. Now,
why fourteen months into this end of hostilities - and the British have yet to
call an end to hostilities - why two or three years into this peace
process has there not been a coming together of all the political Parties.
Sorry, John, please, I could put preconditions upon David Trimble. I could put
preconditions upon John Major, Members of my Party - those who vote for our
Party, supporters of our Party - have been killed and injured as a result of
the activities of Unionist death squads and as a result of the activities of
the British Army. I don't want to do that. I want to move forward, to make
sure that none of those things ever happen again.
HUMPHRYS: Let me offer you another suggestion as
to how you might do that. The IRA has said absolutely no question of handing
over weapons at this stage. Now, what about the suggestion that the
Commission, the Independent Commission - perhaps, chaired by an American
Senator is set up and that as you enter into discussions with that Commission,
the IRA hands over some of its weapons. Now, do you think that that makes
sense? Looking at it from your position.
ADAMS: Well, first of all, can I tell you -
and I said this six months ago - Sinn Fein has no room, whatsover to manoeuvre
on this issue. There are six armed groups in this situation.
HUMPHRYS: Can I just....
ADAMS: Excuse me just John...
HUMPHRYS: I'd just like to clarify this because
I'm not asking you whether you've got any weapons. I don't want to get into
that debate what I'm saying is...
ADAMS: But you have to let me talk you see if
you want me...you know...
HUMPHRYS: But, I'm trying to....
ADAMS: You could, perhaps, do the interview
without me. Then, you wouldn't have to ask me any questions at all.
HUMPHRYS: No. I'm genuinely trying to be helpful
here. If you have those six groups watching this programme, listening to
what you have to say, it might, might it not, be helpful for you to say 'I,
Gerry Adams, President of Sinn Fein, think that's not a bad idea."
ADAMS: Well, whatever I think about the
situation, the problem is that we will not get into All Party talks according
to the British Government unless a group over which Sinn Fein has no control,
over which the SDLP has no control, over which the Irish Government has no
control, unless that group surrenders its weapons.
HUMPHRYS: You have influence.
ADAMS: And what the British Government are
trying to do is to almost subvert this peace process. In my view, because
militarists who fought in Ireland, or who were in charge of a war policy in
Ireland for twenty-five years are still seeking to win some sort of outdated
and unviable and unachievable military victory. What we want to do is to build
peace. Now, obviously, disarmament..a disarmament of all the groups, the
disbandment of all the armed groups, a total demilitarisation of the situation
is an objective of the peace process. It's an achievable one, in my view.
But what we have had here for the last number of months is a very achievable
and necessary objective being turned into an obstacle and if we can't get
into talks then we can't make peace.
HUMPHRYS: And what I'm offering you here is this
suggestion of one way around that, that is to say that you, given that you
don't have the weapons at your immediate disposal - I take your point about
that because you make it very many times - but you are in a position as leader
of Sinn Fein to say: look, I think this isn't a bad idea. Let's have that
commission and then maybe I think it would be very helpful if the IRA were to
give up its weapons or some of its weapons at the door to the Commission.
ADAMS: Well I think and I've been told by many
others wiser than I, that politics is the art of the possible. We persuaded
people who were engaged in armed struggle to cease their armed struggle.
HUMPHRYS: Well, there you are. You can persuade
them in other directions as well.
ADAMS: No. Excuse me. That requires the two
main sides in this conflict because it's an Anglo-Irish conflict. The British
and their allies and the Loyalist section of our people and the Republicans and
Nationalists. That requires both those groups to be prepared to come to the
table to make peace. Now, in the last fourteen months, we have seen the
British retaining military strength at the same level as it was in 1992. We
have seen no movement on prisoners and here in Britain we have seen conditions
for Irish prisoners deteriorating. We have seen Orange Marchers being forced
through Catholic areas, where they weren't welcome; we have seen no attempt to
even address the issue of policing - which is a very vexed issue. We've seen
repressive legislation reimposed by the British and we aren't even addressing
the issues about the future. You talked earlier about the need for a new
Britain. Now, why can't we have a new Ireland? Why can't the British
Government and you, as interviewer in this situation appear to be attempting to
play the role of a broker, which is okay for an interviewer but it isn't OK for
your Prime Minister.
HUMPHRYS: Well what I'm doing is offering you
suggestions and trying to gauge your reaction, your response to those
questions?
ADAMS: But, you're offering me suggestions
which are aimed at processing a British precondition which ...
HUMPHRYS: But then other questions will be asked
of the British Government and are constantly being asked of the British
government. Right now, you are there.
ADAMS: I would love, John, to listen to your
programme next week and to hear John Major - and you talked to John Prescott
about everything but the question of Ireland - to hear the British Labour Party
leadership asked is it going to squander this unprecedented opportunity for
peace?
HUMPHRYS: We have asked both parties many times...
... but right now it's you sitting there and you're the Leader of Sinn Fein and
that's why I'm putting these points to you. And, one other, if I may, before
wemove on. This other suggestion that the IRA, as it were, should declare 'no
first use' - the Unionist paramilitaries have done that, why should not the
IRA do that? Do you think that might be a helpful idea?
ADAMS: Well, I think the IRA did almost
fourteen months ago.
HUMPHRYS: No. I used the word 'permanent'.
ADAMS: Excuse me. Look, I want to answer this
question in two ways, if I may. First of all, the Loyalists are still arming -
that's first of all. Secondly, a large percentage of the weapons that they
have were given to them by British military intelligence; secondly, I meet RUC
men in areas where they are most unwelcome. Now, if the British Prime Minister
is prepared to have enough confidence in the IRA to put his policemen in those
hostile areas, then he should have the courage to enter into talks.
HUMPHRYS: David Trimble has said: if you've got
any new suggestions to regenerate, revitalise this peace process he'd like to
hear them. In thirty seconds, have you got one?
ADAMS: Well, let David Trimble stop talking at
me and start talking to me and between the two of us and all the other Parties
involved, we'll find a way out of this impasse. Let David Trimble keep saying:
not an inch, no surrender, echoing the rhetoric of the British Prime Minister,
then the peace process remains in considerable difficulty.
HUMPHRYS: But at the moment, it looks deadlocked,
eh?
ADAMS: Because the British Government are
refusing to move.
HUMPHRYS: Gerry Adams, thanks very much.
ADAMS: Thank you John.
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