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ON THE RECORD
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 4.2.96
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Terry Dignan reporting. Ron Davies,
have you really got a policy? It seems you don't.
RON DAVIES MP: We have a very clear policy and it was
endorsed unanimously by the last Labour Party Conference in LLandudno last
year. Tony Blair made the speech extracts which you've shown which made it
clear that that was the agreed policy. He urged everyone present to support
that - Conference endorsed that policy and that is a very clear policy which
commands broad support. If I might say so the people that you interviewed on
the screen a moment or so ago indicated those who were more enthusiastic for
the assembly and than those who were perhaps less enthusiastic, but they really
are the outriders of the argument. The Party in Wales is united behind a very
clear policy.
HUMPHRYS: Well, most of those who spoke to you
were MPs, but I mean they're not clear, obviously, from what you heard there.
They're absolutely opposing each other on all sorts of important areas of this
policy. So, they're not clear what your policy is.
DAVIES: Yes, there are a couple of areas which
have been the subject of debate. But the policy is settled (sic).
HUMPHRYS: Key areas?
DAVIES: Well, there are a couple of policies,
not the key areas. The key area if I might say so is the face that the Labour
Party in Wales is committed unanimously to legislate for an elected assembly
after taking office. And, if there is a great divide in Welsh politics at the
moment it's between those of us who are arguing for a directly elected assembly
and those, principally the Conservative Party who believe that everything is
right with our democracy in Wales and who want to retain the status quo.
HUMPHRYS: Well, if only from your point of view,
if only it were that simple. It's not just that they don't - that they're
disagreeing about the policy - they're not even clear what it is, what policy
you have got. That's the problem, and we saw it very vividly illustrated in
that film.
DAVIES: But that's not true. The fact of the
matter is there is a very good document was presented to our conference last
year at LLandudno, Shaping the Vision, and that was endorsed unanimously.
HUMPHRYS: Yeah, and is now being interpreted by
all sorts of people in all sorts of different ways.
DAVIES: Well, if you choose to go out and
interview individuals and put questions to them, they will obviously respond to
those questions. But I know that the Welsh Executive, the Parliamentary Labour
Party and certainly the front bench and the leadership of the Labour Party
nationally wants to see the principles contained in Shaping the Vision put
before the people of Wales at the next Election, and legislated upon.
HUMPHRYS: Alright, well, let's look at some of the
areas of the policy, then. Let's look first at how the members of this
assembly would be elected: Proportional Representation. Now what is the
Party's policy? People on the Commission obviously wanted Proportional
Representation. It was thrown out by the Executive and then by the conference.
Now that seems to be unravelling.
DAVIES: Well, let me be clear. The Commission
was charged with a task by the Executive of consulting the people of Wales. It
consulted widely both within the Labour Party and outside the Labour Party, and
obviously when you're having a consultation exercise, alternative views are put
forward. That is the whole purpose of the consultation. Views were expressed
both in favour of first past the post and in favour of the various schemes of
Proportional Representation. At the end of the day, however, the Commission
put the alternatives to the Executive and the Executive's preferred option was
to retain the first past the post system. They did so on the basis that we're
familiar with that system, people understand it. And, when we are creating a
new institution where obviously there are doubts about how it will operate and
so on, it's best to stick to that which people are comfortable and familiar
with. And, that view was endorsed by the Party Conference and as far as I'm
aware there are no proposals to change that.
HUMPHRYS: No proposals to change that. It is cast
in stone forever, is that right?
DAVIES: There are no proposals to change it,
but, clearly, as I indicated earlier on, when you're having a process of
consultation people do and must feel free to express their own views on the
matter.
HUMPHRYS: So it might be changed?
DAVIES: No. I'm saying when you have a process
of consultation, that process of consultation was completed last year. The
Executive decided that its preferred option was first past the post, that went
to Party conference, that was endorsed and that remains the policy of the
moment.
HUMPHRYS: Ah, you said 'at the moment'.
DAVIES: Well, at this moment in time. I'm- If
your next question is: am I proposing to change it? The answer is: I'm not
proposing the change it.
HUMPHRYS: Alright, let me phrase that question in
my own way then, rather than, are you proposing the change it? Is it possible
that it might be changed?
DAVIES: It's a theoretical possiblity, but I
don't believe it will. I think that the overwhelming opinion within the Labour
Party in Wales is that the policy is now settled for the next Election. We
will fight the General Election on the basis of the policies endorsed by our
last conference.
HUMPHRYS: Right. But if there are proposals at
the Party Conference that it should change, it is possible that it might
change?
DAVIES: It's theoretically possible, but I must
say that I wouldn't advocate that course of action.
HUMPHRYS: Even though you're in favour of
Proportional Representation?
DAVIES: If I could just answer the question. I
wouldn't personally advocate that course of action, and I'll give you the
reason why in a moment. Neither do I think that it is likely that we will
have a debate at Party Conference, and the reason is quite clear. At last
year's conference we did have this unanimity in support of the proposals, and I
think that the great prize of the Labour Party of Wales has been able to
achieve during the last twelve or eighteen months is to win the argument about
devolution. And, when the next Election comes, I want the principles of
devolution, our need to do away with the undemocratic, the corrupt, the
authoritarian government that we've had in Wales, I want to do away with that,
and have elected a directly elected assembly governing our affairs. And,
that's a prize worth having.
HUMPHRYS: And you reckon that it would be entirely
democratic if this new assembly were to be dominated as it surely would be
under "first past the post", by a group of Labour MPs largely from the
South-East of Wales?
DAVIES: Well, the composition of the assembly
obviously will reflect the views of the people of Wales. I personally believe
that when we're constructing the assembly we have to construct it in a way
which makes people throughout Wales - be they living in North Wales, or South
Wales, industrial Wales or rural Wales - we have to create the assembly in such
a way that people feel comfortable with it. Now the argument...
HUMPHRYS: But that's exactly the point isn't it
that John Marek was making there, that people in North Wales simply will not
accept this. They will see that it's run by what used to be called the Taffyia
(phon). Of course they wont' accept this.
DAVIES: As an ex-Cardiff boy, you would know
about the Taffyia of course?
HUMPHRYS: Yes, absolutely. It was there then -
it's there now.
DAVIES: You will argue-you will argue the case
that PR is central to that objective of making the assembly.
HUMPHRYS: I argue nothing. I merely represent the
arguments of others, and they are arguing very persuasivly.
DAVIES: You're presenting that argument. I
understand and I accept the view that the adoption of a Proportional
Representation system is one way of making the assembly inclusive. But I must
make it clear that in the consultations that we had there was no consensus in
favour of one scheme or another. The Labour Party Executive has come to its
view, conference has taken its view, and we must go forward. And I believe
that there are a number of other ways in which we can make the assembly
inclusive by making sure that within the Labour Party of Wales for example, our
own procedures are as opening and as democratic - are as inviting as possible.
HUMPHRYS: So, the fact is that you've been
steamrollered haven't you here, by a group of Welsh MPs, as I say largely from
the south-east of Wales who wouldn't have it the other way. And that's that,
what they want they get. That's how it works.
DAVIES: That isn't the case. The policy
was determined by the Welsh Executive and that view was endorsed by the Labour
Party conference last year unanimously. I can assure you that there's no
question of anybody steamrollering anybody else.
HUMPHRYS: Alright.
DAVIES: The fact of the matter is that there are
honestly held differences of opinion. Those views have been expressed. We've
now come to a consensus on what the way forward should be and the question of
PR I must say is only one, very, very small part of the argument for
devolution.
HUMPHRYS: Well, let's look at an area then where
they're arguing not just about how it ought to be, but what the policy actually
is, and that is the power of this assembly. Some say they think they're going
to have a talking shop and that's it. Others say it is going to have this
assembly. It's going to have real powers, powers of primary legislation, the
powers of a Parliament. What is it going to have?
DAVIES: Well, you're offering me two
alternatives and I'll tell you what the agreed policy is. The conference
accepted the view of the Executive that we should have a directly elected
assembly which basically would take over the powers currently discharged by the
Welsh Office. The reason for that is quite clear. Interestingly you were
interviewing John Redwood earlier on. You didn't ask him about his proposals
to privatise natural nature reserves or the-.
HUMPHRYS: No, no, that's not what the interview
was going to be about.
DAVIES: Indeed, but this is the argument for
devolution. The scandals that we have of Tory appointments to quangos, the way
that the Welsh Office operates in a very secretive way, the fact that he, a
Member of Parliament representing a Constituency in Reading was able virtually
single-handedly to bankrupt the Welsh Development Agency. Now those things
wouldn't have happened had we had a directly-elected tier of government in
Wales. And, the determination now is to ensure that the functions of the Welsh
Office, the allocation of seven billion pounds of Public Expenditure, control
over a whole range of Executive functions, the responsiblity of representing
the Welsh interest in discussions at Cabinet, and crucially a range of
secondary legislative powers, all of those will be transferred. I knew you
wanted....
HUMPHRYS: Secondary legislated powers. Not
primary legislation, so the people we talked to on that film, who said this has
gone. I mean not: "we would like it to have". But when you read your
document, what it says is "this has primary legislated powers, therefore it is
a proper...." They're wrong, they've misunderstood.
DAVIES: The document doesn't say that.
HUMPHRYS: No, but they've interpreted it as saying
that.
DAVIES: What I've explained to you is that whole
range of functions which it is agreed will transfer to the assembly. There is
an area and the document that we agreed at conference last year, in paragraph
44, if you have it in front of you John..
HUMPHRYS: Well I've read it yes.
DAVIES: Refers to the fact that there may be
a need, in specified areas, the point that Wayne David was making on your
film, in specified areas: dealing with quangos, dealing with local government
and dealing with the Welsh language. In those areas, there may be a need, in
those specified areas, to transfer other powers to the assembly. Now...
HUMPHRYS: Primary powers, powers of primary
legislation?
DAVIES: I actually think that the debate which
you are trying to develope between primary and secondary legislation....
HUMPHRYS: I don't know that we are trying to
develope any debate...the debate exists in Wales, as you well know, and a real
debate at that.
DAVIES: But I think, with respect, the way that
you are presenting that, indicates that there is this fundamental division
within the Labour Party. There isn't a fundamental division, let me assure you.
The majority in the Labour Party, the overwhelming majority in the Labour
Party, is absolutely four-square, behind the proposals that we have which were
endorsed, as I've said, by last year's conference. Now within the Labour
Party, there are people who would like us to go further and within the Labour
Party, there are people who are saying, we are satisfied with the proposals as
they stand and we don't want to go any further. Now it's hardly surprising,
can I just make this point, it's hardly surprising when you have a major, a
radical, very sensible set of proposals for constitutional reform, it's hardly
surprising that within the debate you have some people who are more
enthusiastic than others.
HUMPHRYS: Alright, well on a point of clarity
then, as they say, these new powers, these powers that will be devolved to this
assembly, even for those areas that you've discussed: Welsh language,quangos
and so on, will not be the powers equivalent to primary legislation. They will
merely be secondary legislated powers, in other words - tinkering with the
mechanics of the thing - they will not be real powers, so it will be a talking
shop.
DAVIES: It depends how the legislation is
framed.
HUMPHRYS: Ah, you haven't decided then.
DAVIES: We have decided and I am quite happy to
tell you precisely what the position is and it will not be a talking shop.
It will, as I indicated earlier on, be an assembly with very very substantial
powers. The argument that it's a talking shop, really is an argument which is
floated by those people who don't want to see any meaningful form of
devolution. What the Labour Party has to do, is to make sure that it puts
forward to the people of Wales, a form of devolution, which commands broad
support. Both within the Labour movement, which attracts support from other
political parties, and attracts support from the non-political body in Wales
and I am satisfied that our proposals do that.
HUMPHRYS: So Wayne David is wrong when he
interprets that bit of the document, we recognise, I think I remember the
words: recognise the need for some specified powers to be devolved". He is
wrong when he interprets that as meaning there will be, because he is quite
clear about it, he said so in that report "there will be primary powers for
this assembly".
DAVIES: Wayne, quite properly identified the
three areas: of quangos, of local government, of the Welsh language, where the
document says there may be a need for certain specified additional powers to be
transferred.
HUMPHRYS: He said primary legislated powers.
Quite clear about that, he used that very language and he repeated it yes when
he was asked about it, no doubt about it.
DAVIES: That's what the document says, there may
be a need for primary legislative powers in those specified areas to be
transferred. What we are now looking at and what the..our commission is
looking at, is precisely how the details of the legislation will be framed to
give, for example, the assembly its powers to restructure quangos, which was
the example that Wayne David used. But to pretend and this is the dichotomy, I
think, to pretent that the transfer of specified, specific powers in an active
Westminster Parliament to pretend that somehow that is a parallel to the fully
fledged Parliament which Scotland has, really is inaccurate portrayal of what
the situation is.
HUMPHRYS: So Terry Thomas was wrong about that
then. I mean Wayne Davies too, I'm now thoroughly confused. Wayne David, says
quite categorically, primary powers, you seem to say in that answer: yeah in
certain circumstances, they will have primary powers. Terry Thomas says no
they won't.
DAVIES: The document is quite clear.
HUMPHRYS: I've read it about sixteen times and I
can't...and so have they and they can't seem to decide either.
DAVIES: Well let me as the representative of
Labour ....
HUMPHRYS: Well they decided, but they decided
differently...
DAVIES: Well let me as the Labour Party
representative here make it absolutely clear, what the position is. The
document said, in paragraph 44, there may be a need in certain specified areas,
to give further powers to the Welsh Assembly, in respect of quangos, local
government and the Welsh...
HUMPHRYS: As you say...
DAVIES: That's quite clear. What the Labour
Party Commission, is currently doing, is defining those areas and looking at
the way in which the legislation can be framed to transfer those powers to the
Welsh Assembly. But I must make it absolutely clear, that falls far short of
any idea that somehow there's a whole tranch of powers of primary legislation
being handed over to the assembly. That isn't the policy and that will not be
the policy.
HUMPHRYS: There is, one thinks, something of a
fudge going on here and the reason that there is a fudge going on here is
because you cannot sell either of those ideas to a substantial part of the
Party, so you've got to try and fudge it. That's the problem that you're facing
here isn't it?
DAVIES: I can assure you, I can honestly assure
you that isn't the case. There is no fudge, it's not a question of selling to
either section of the Party because the Party was unanimous in endorsing that
policy last year. What we are now trying to do, and the great danger that
commentators face, if I might say so, is expecting the Labour Party in
opposition, to construct its own detailed legislation.
HUMPHRYS: I think we do expect that, so that we
can understand it, so that the voters can understand it.
DAVIES: We are establishing the principles and
the principles are quite clear. What we have to do when we form Government is
to then use the Civil Service and use the Parliamentary draughtsmen to ensure
that the legislation is constructed in such a way as to meet our objectives.
HUMPHRYS: Oh, right - right. So, it's not going
to happen until after you get into power then, we're not going to know really
what you intend to do until after you're in power?
DAVIES: Well-but, I've told you what we intend
to do.
HUMPHRYS: Well, you've confused me as to what you
intend to do.
DAVIES: We intend to set up a directly elected
assembly with all of the powers that I've indicated and the assembly will be in
power to carry out the functions which the Westminster assembly, which the
Westminster Parliament wishes to convey to that assembly. And, in respect of
those three specified areas, there will be powers which will allow the Welsh
Assembly to have the tools to do the job.
HUMPHRYS: Alright, well we'll leave people to make
of that what they will, but one thing you are absolutely clear about is that
there will not be a referendum for the people of Wales to decide?
DAVIES: Well it certainly is my view that when
the next Election comes, the debate about devolution will be central to the
debate in Wales and I am satisfied that we have very clear proposals which
command majority support in Wales as a whole. It's unanimously endorsed by the
Labour Party. Those proposals will be put. I have every confidence that we
will hold the support that we had at the last Election and that we will win the
half a dozen or so seats which we need to win in Wales in order to form a
Labour Government. That will be a very clear mandate for a set of policies
which command very broad support.
HUMPHRYS: Well the idea that they're very clear
may draw some wry smiles because you've just acknowledged that the details of
it won't be sorted out until after you're in power. And, as we all know, the
devil lies in the detail. But, in any case-
DAVIES: The details of the legislation.
HUMPHRYS: Yeah, quite so. But, in any case, why
shouldn't Wales be allowed to vote? You're proposing assemblies in certain
cases for English regions. They will have a referendum but not the people of
Wales?
DAVIES: No, the proposals for England are quite
separate and it is recognised in the document for English Regional Government
that consent has to be sought from the people and that can be either by a
General Election or by a referendum. But in Wales...
HUMPHRYS: Ah yes, you're giving them the choice of
a referendum.
DAVIES: But the situation it quite different.
It's quite different in Wales from Scotland; it's quite different in Wales from
England. In the case of Wales the-we've had a Secretary of State for some
thirty years. We've had a separate Department of State in the Welsh Office and
during those thirty years there has been a gradual process of devolution with
powers being handed by successive governments - Labour and Conservatives -
giving additional powers to the Secretary of State.
HUMPHRYS: And there's been a referendum too in
Wales and they threw out the idea of devolution.
DAVIES: The Regional Government...
HUMPHRYS: Overwhelmingly.
DAVIES: The Regional Government exists in Wales
at the moment and over the last fifteen years, there has been a considerable
growth in support for the idea that that Regional Government that we have
should be democratised. What we are saying is that come the next General
Election, we will be presenting to the people of Wales our proposals for
assembly, which will deal with the problems which we've currently identified.
If we had a mandate, we will consider then that we are in-that we are given the
power by the people to legislate.
HUMPHRYS: Some people, Mr Davies, might say that
this is the old Labour Party at its worst where we're looking at pure
expediency here. You had to do something for Wales because you promised to do
something for Scotland and doing this, setting up this sort of assembly with
sort of powers which may or may not be prime (sic) and all the rest of it,
looked easy but now it's coming unstuck.
DAVIES: That isn't the case. The situation, the
Constitutional position of Scotland and Wales are quite different. Scotland,
up until about three hundred years ago, had its own Parliament, there is a
separate legislative process within Westminster for Scottish legislation, the
system for English and Welsh legislation is different.
HUMPHRYS: I take that point, you made that point.
DAVIES: Well let me just reply to your question.
HUMPHRYS: Right, very briefly.
DAVIES: Our proposals are made in Wales to deal
with the difficulties that we have in Wales and to reflect the present
circumstances. When the public were last asked in an opinion poll a week ago,
sixty seven per cent of the people of Wales warmly endorsed our proposals.
HUMPHRYS: Right. I'll tell you what it illustrates
though and it's rather interesting, this. It illustrates the divide if you
like in Wales between old and new Labour but here we've got Mr Blair coming
down on the side of old Labour. Now, isn't that interesting?
DAVIES: No, I don't think that's the case at
all. I am confident that the real divide - because you want to talk about the
divide - the real divide is between the new Labour Party in Wales which has
these proposals to renew and to modernise our Constitution and between the
forces of reaction which is the Conservative Party.
HUMPHRYS: Ron Davies, thank you very much, indeed.
DAVIES: Thank you very much.
HUMPHRYS: And that's it for this week. I'll be
back at half past twelve next Sunday, until then, goodbye.
...ooOOOoo...
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