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ON THE RECORD
DONALD DEWAR INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 2.6.96
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Donald Dewar does it worry you that a
growing number of people in the Labour Party are concerned that too much power
is now concentrated in Tony Blair's office?
DONALD DEWAR: Well, I just don't recognise that
scenario. I notice you referred to bitter attacks on the concentration of
power. I think the whole mark of Tony Blair's tenure in the leadership is how
he has built and expanded the efforts of Neil Kinnock and John Smith to in fact
push the responsibility and involvement out into the party as a whole. I mean
when I first came into the Labour Party it was quite narrowly held, usually in
the General Management committees and now it of course lies with members, and
there is very very complex and increasingly effective consultation machinery of
which the road to the Manifesto, which is going to give every individual member
of the Party a chance to have his say on the final Manifesto, is a symbol, and
a very important part.
HUMPHRYS: Well you say it's effective, but many
people think not otherwise we wouldn't have this new organisation, would we,
Labour Reform, a group of supporters from across the spectrum within the Party,
set up precisely because they are worried about the direction they are going.
DEWAR: Well I don't want to knock labour reform
and the Labour Party anyway is entitled to their point of view, but can I say
to you precisely, that my only knowledge of Labour Reform is what I've seen in
Newsnight programmes, it's a Newsnight programme creation. So far as I'm
concerned, because it has never contacted me, I never met a member of it and
I don't think it represents a significant view within the Party. And so far as
the programme is concerned, I was enormouslyt encouraged by what I see.
David Crosby, is quite right to represent the people of Bolton when he comes to
Parliament and speak for them. He is right to put the emphasis on
manufacturing industry and building our economic base. And the last think I
want, is people who don't do that kind of job for their constituents, and the
last thing I want is just zombies, who can be directed by me through the
lobbies and who don't make any contribution to the campaigning, the thinking
the working in the party. And the great thing is, if you look at the intake
over recent years, now just from 1992 but before that, that we're on an
upward curve. I'm a veteran, I can go back years and years, back into the
sixties, and one thing I'm absolutely clear about is that the candidate of
Labour.. the quality of Labour MPs has gone up very very markedly over those
years.
HUMPHRYS: You say that Labour Reform is new, well
of course it is and every organisation has to start somewhere, but it's got to
have new members it's growing. We also heard in that film from Lynne Jones,
who says that what you're talking about, the great democratisation, is in fact
a sham. Loads of consultation but not actual decision making on the part of
the members.
DEWAR: In the Labour Party, we have to carry
the opinion in the Party. What we are trying to do is make sure that the Party
is fully involved in that process. Now when I'm reselected as a Member of
Parliament, it's not done by a narrowly based group of delegates, it's done by
every member of the party, so that several hundred people will be voting. That
seems to me to be an enormous improvement and give a real meaning to party
membership. Instead of trying to get the whole of police hammered out in five,
perhaps slightly chaotic days of Party Conference, with no real time for proper
debate, we've now got a National Policy Forum in which people regionally
selected, are coming together on many many occasions, to try and contribute and
to guide. And I think these are enormous improvements on the road for
Manifesto, the idea that we'll have in short while now, a document which is the
basis of a Manifesto, it goes out to consultation in every party in the United
Kingdom and Great Britain, it then goes on the the NEC and to the Shadow
Cabinet, and ultimately subjected not just to Conference decision, but to a
referendum of all membership of the Parties. Just compare that, if you call
that a sham, compare it with what is happening in every other political party
in this country, we're miles ahead. You may say to me we ought to go further,
I've no doubt we'll want to sophisticate, and I've no doubt we'll get better at
it, but it represents very real progress.
HUMPHRYS: Well I wouldn't say that you ought to go
further, what I say to you is you ought to look again at what your'e doing,
because on the face of it, that sounds immensely democratic, this idea of the
Manifesto, for instance, going out to all the members of the party. But come
on, that isn't true democracy if when they're given that Manifesto, they can in
the words of Lynn Jones, "either take it or leave it"they can't actually amend
things and then have votes on them in a truly democratic way. Take it or leave
it if you don't like it. And of course they can't leave it because that would
so damage and so embarrass the Labour Partym it would be inconceivable.
DEWAR: Well I certainly hope that they won't,
but that is a matter for the electorate, and we take risks. I mean Tony Blair,
one of his characteristics is that he a a leader who if he thinks that the
issue is important enough he will take risks.
HUMPHRYS: But that's not a realistic risk is it?
Come on you know, you say you hope thay won't do it, they can't do it can
they?
DEWAR: Well let me give you an example of the
risks he takes; Many old veterans, many foot soldiers of many years
experience, have said all this democracy coming into conference, the
increasing power of the individual conference delegate, will make conference
more difficult to manage. Tony has said "Well, so be it". And that is what
democracy is about, it is involving people and giving them that chance,
and he's gone very bravely down that road. In the same way he's now involving
people more and more. If you're saying to me that we ought to shut down the
shop and just take it back to the old what was called 'Clause Five Mechanism' ,
when it was all done by a very small group of people, one meeting on one
afternoon, well I think you're wrong. I'm very proud of what's happening and
I think that the Labour Party membership card give people a greater
stake in reality of politics, than the membership card of any other party.
HUMPHRYS: What I'm saying to you is that the kind
of thing you describe is not real democracy. I mean every organisation,
there's loads and loads because in many organisations, schools, the Army,
companies, you have consultation, but at the end of that process, in those
organisations, the headteacher, the colonel or the general or the chairman of
the company says: right we've had our consultation, now we've decided. And
that's what in truth happening in the Labour Party. It is the leadership who
decides.
DEWAR: No, at the end of the day it's
Conference that decides but we're also having another input, which is a direct
referendum of the members.
HUMPHRYS: Precisely, and you're looking for a
rubber stamp there.
DEWAR: Well if you say you're looking for
rubber stamp, the people who have to decide whether they are going to
approve or not approve are the members themselves.
HUMPHRYS: But you know they will not reject it?
DEWAR: You're applying here a test in which
you're applying to no other party. We have got a system now where there are
points of influence where there is an input by ordinary members and by
backbench MPs, which you don't get in any other political party, and we ought
to get some credit for that.
HUMPHRYS: But I'm applying for the test and now
giving you the credit if you like. (INTERRUPTION) No far from it, far from
it, gracious, to the end. I'm applying the test, because you tell us the
Labour Party says New Labour is all about true democracy. Now what I'm
suggesting to you is that there is the appearance of democracy, but in reality,
when it comes down to it, it's take it or leave it. The Policy Forum is a
example of that. You give people policies from the leadership, they look at
them, they discuss them, it goes back to the leadership, the leadership does
what it wants to do.
DEWAR: As someone who has spent many years in
departmental brief in opposition, I know how important party opinion is, and I
know as I've appeared before the National Policy Forum and I've had to
discuss issues with them. There are some very sparky individualks in that
gathering. They have points of view they represent points of view, they report
back to the people who have sent them, and I can assure you that we have to
carry them and we have to listen to them, and that's a new machinery that has
been put in place. And I'm just enormously encouraged by the seriousness with
which it has been taken within the party, I freely concede to you that there
are tensions, because it is new, because it is settling down. Some people may
even feel that they're being slightly by-passed, in order to give the influence
to a broader congregation, but that it seems to me, is a very welcome
development, and also with our ordinary MPs, I say ordinary backbench MPs,
junior ministers, and so on, if we win this election, there will be I think a
much greater involvement that there has been in the past.
There's a famous story about Willy Ross,
a very respected Scottish Secretary, who faced their Junior Minister on his
first day, who said "What do I do now"and Willy said "You do as you're telt
(told)" That atmosphere has gone from the party, and and we've progressed.
HUMPHRYS: You tell me that that atmosphere has
gone from the Party, but let me suggest to you why a lot of people are worried
about the way it's going, because they see the party changing around them, they
see the attitudes that the party expresses. Sometimes even the values that it
appears to hold change and the latest example of this is Jack Straw. Let's
take a couple little things that Mr. Straw has said, he even came downm heavily
on squeegy merchants and the down and outs. He wanted them removed from the
streets. Now they wake up to discover that the party - your members that is,
wake up to discover that the party is taking seriously this idea of enforcing
curfews in towns and cities across Britain, on sixteen to eighteen year old
kids so that can't go out on the streets at night. Well I mean they are
saying, "I can't remember ever having discussed this."
DEWAR: No, but they're now getting a chance to
discuss that particular problem, and what Jack Straw is doing is drawing
attention to a problem that worries almost everyone in this country. It
certainly worries my constituents and it's brought to me very very frequently.
I had a residents' association recently came to see me about this very problem.
What Jack Straw is doing is throwing up an idea and saying: well is this worth
thinking about, is this worth looking at? He's not laying down policy; I mean
if Jack Straw had suddenly appeared in front os us and said the Labour policy
is now written in stone and it will be, you have a complaint, Your complaint
appears to be that he is saying here is something that we ought to take
seriously, and who's going to quarrel with them about that? And here is one
possible approach, let's hear what people think about it. And really that seems
to be a perfectly rational way of approaching matters.
HUMPHRYS: So, do you think it's a good idea?
DEWAR: Well, I haven't talked to Jack about it
and I certainly am very well aware of the problems. I think there would be
difficulties about implementation. But that's something for discussion. I
certainly believe...
HUMPHRYS: But you know the issues involved....
DEWAR: .... let me just say, I certainly
believe that when it comes to areas of law and order and social cohesion, I
think it is the voice of the Party as a whole, which is very important. I went
to a meeting yesterday, which I spoke at, which was all the agents and key
workers and candidates in Scotland, and I was talking there about social
policy, about growing inequality, about how we had to tackle these matters, and
the feed-back becomes very important on that. You've got to talk and listen
before you come to conclusions, and that is what the party has become, very
much more sophisticated over and I think very much more effective.
I think these MPs you've been talking
about, I mean taxi drivers, nurses, engineers, teachers, they're going to come
in brim full of ideas, and that's exactly what I want. I don't want people who
aren't good potential ministers, Cabinet ministers, Chief Whips or what have
you. I want people who have that potential and who are going to really feed
in to the process of policy formation under a Labour Government.
HUMPHRYS: You feed then on this one very quickly,
if you would, are you... is your view personally leaning towards this idea of
curfews? Do you think that's a good idea?
DEWAR: I haven't discussed it with any of my
colleagues...
HUMPHRYS: You say Jack Straw's entitled to express
his view, well you're equally entitled to express your view, you must have a
view.
DEWAR: I haven't discussed it, I haven't looked
at the practicalities. My first instinct is that this is a problem of very
real proportions. I'm not sure that a curfew would be a workable solution, but
what I do believe is that any responsible political Party should be considering
these problems and if you go out into the housing schemes and residential areas
of Glasgow and talk to ordinary people, they don't want a Party that's
frightened to discuss these matters, they want a Party that will throw up
ideas and will come to considered conclusions over a period of time. That's
what policy formation is about, it shouldn't be done in closed and secret
places and we're not doing that.
HUMPHRYS: Alright, but that's something you say
isn't written down, absolutely right, something that is written down is stake
holding. Now Tony Blair went off to Singapore and when he came back, you had a
policy that said the Labour Party is the Party of the stake holders. That was
fine as far as it went. Trade Union leaders then leapt up and said "Right, so
how are we going to change company law?". They were then told "but you're
not going to change company law, that isn't happening". Now here, we had a
new policy enunciated by the leader, and not only did he say what the Party now
stood for, but he also said you're not going to even think about changing
company law. They were leapt on from a great height.
DEWAR: You see, what happened was that Tony
Blair took a very large number of policy themes, brought them together and put
a trade mark on them..
TALKING TOGETHER
DEWAR: ...no, it didn't exclude others as such,
and what happened was, he put a trade mark. One of our problems is that we
have an enormous range of, it seems to me, well thought out, well established
policies, yet we're constantly being attacked for not having any policies and
what Tony was doing there was bringing together and putting a focus on a very
important area of policy with the stake-holders concept, and then we went on
from that to discuss detail and to evaluate it further ...
HUMPHRYS: But you didn't discuss detail....
DEWAR: ....in the same way as Gordon Brown, for
example, has been laying down some very precise objectives about fiscal
responsibility and economic management, about for example, only borrowing for
investment, not for consumption, a whole range of these matters and that will
be part of the process, that is part of the process which will lead to an
economic section in the road to a Manifesto.
HUMPHRYS: But you said there was full discussion
after what Mr Blair had to say about stake holding and all that. There wasn't.
The minute people started saying "well, now let's talk about how we're going to
change company law", they were told by Mr Brown, by Mr Blair, "No we're not
going to change company law, full stop, don't go stirring up trouble with that
sort of talk, because it will give the Tories a free hit".
DEWAR: Let me just say to you that Gordon Brown
or Tony Blair, or anyone else, has a very important part in the formulation of
policy, but it's much broader than that and anyone who knows either of those
two men will know that they're not people who have a imperial Czar-like
approach to policy formation. In fact, sometimes, as I sit through the many
many meetings I've taken part in, I wish sometimes that the consultation was
not quite as broad as it is.
HUMPHRYS: Well I don't recall the party actually
..... change company law, when did that happen?
DEWAR: Let me say to you that because someone
says perhaps you ought to change something, it doesn't mean that that then has
to become part of Labour Party policy. There are economic policy commissions,
there is the national policy forum. If anyone wants to bring forward policy
proposals or suggestions, that can be done through that proper machinery, and I
really do.. I understand of course the temptation, but I think people are
looking for conspiracies, they're looking for black threats that don't exist,
and what we've got is a very open system in which whether it be Lynne Jones or
any other member of the Party, she can put, as she has in your programme, a
point of view which is very different perhaps from the one I would want to put,
but she's welcome to do it because we are an open society, we are a movement
which is pulling together with one objective and which I think as the polls, as
the recent by-elections, as the local Government elections show, has been
remarkably successful.
HUMPHRYS: It may be of course, may it not, that at
the moment most people in the Party are saying "alright, we'll accept this,
we'll accept what's going on because we so badly want power, eighteen years in
opposition and all that, but once you get into power, then it may change and
you may start coming across some problems with your membership".
DEWAR: Well, I don't know, that is always a
possibility, but I have to say to you there is a unity of purpose which I find
very impressive and when I listen to the interviews you have in your film, when
I talk to candidates up and down the country, what they want to do is to be
there and contributing. And if you look, for example, at the Council Leaders,
like Graham Stringer, of course we don't know what his particular career will
bring, but many people have adjusted, and it is a difficult adjustment,
starting again in a new environment. Look at David Blunkett, who used to be
prominent in Sheffield, Henry McLeash (phon), a very strong front bencher who
used to be the leader of the Fyfe Regional Council in Scotland, Frank Dobson,
who used to be a leader in a London Borough. People make that adjustment,
talent will out, and there's an awful lot of talent in that group of people
coming into the Commons, and also I may say, an awful lot of women which I
think will be particularly welcome.
HUMPHRYS: Donald Dewar, thank you very much indeed.
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