Interview with Michael Forsyth




       
       
       
 
 
 
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                                 ON THE RECORD 
                                                         
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1                                 DATE:  30.6.96
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JOHN HUMPHRYS:                         Labour HAS changed its policy by advocating referendums, 
but hasn't that 
spiked the Tories' guns?  In our Glasgow Studio is the Scottish Secretary 
Michael Forsyth.  
 
                                       Good afternoon, Mr Forsyth. 
 
MICHAEL FORSYTH MP:                    Hello. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You must be feeling a wee bit sick this 
weekend, mustn't you?  Because last week you were crowing, 'cos you were 
saying: we've got them on a run.  Now, Blair is in trouble.  But, Mr Blair has 
won the support of his Party for his new policy and the support of the people 
of Scotland. 
 
FORSYTH:                               Well, I'll take that question as a bit 
of a joke really.  We've seen his front bench spokesman on Constitutional 
Affairs resign in disgust.  We've seen the former Minister at the Scottish 
Office, Harry Ewing, the Chairman of the Constitutional Convention, resign and 
complain about the treatment.  We've seen the Chairman, the Labour Chairman of 
the Scottish Affairs Select Committee, describe Mr Blair's action as a kick in 
the teeth.  And, we've seen Labour damaged not just by their retreat on 
devolution but damaged because it's become apparent to everyone in Scotland 
that Labour policy in Scotland is not determined by the Scottish Labour Party 
but is determined by Mr Blair and some people in London.   And, that six years 
work with the Constitutional Convention, to build a coalition between the 
Liberals and the Trade Unions for their proposals for a Scottish Parliament 
were torn up.  And, we now have the Liberals attacking them, we have the STUC 
attacking them.  So, I'm not sure why you think I should be depressed? 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well perhaps you've not read The 
Scotsman this morning and the Scotsman on Sunday?  We've seen what the poll 
there tells us, that the people of Scotland want what Mr Blair is now offering 
them - that is a referendum.  They even, they even, want a Scottish Parliament 
with tax-raising powers. 
 
FORSYTH:                               Well, the poll in Scotland on Sunday 
shows that forty-one per cent - at least, one of the polls this morning shows 
that forty-one per cent of the people of Scotland - believe that Labour's 
proposals for Constitutional reform will lead to the breakup of the United 
Kingdom and I'm certainly depressed about that.  As to the support for a 
referendum, there's nothing new about that.  Indeed, I was challenging Labour 
to have a referendum after their Bill, if they ever, of course, formed a 
Government, became an Act.  To have a referendum in the same way as happened 
with the Scotland Act which of course was defeated by the people of Scotland 
who rejected devolution at that time. 
 
                                       To have a referendum in advance of 
legislation is absurd and that's not just my view.  That's what Tam Dalyell is 
saying and Tam Dalyell is quite rightly pointing out that it is a 
Constitutional nonsense to ask questions in advance.  And, Mr Blair's proposal 
to ask questions in advance of the legislation about the existence of the
Parliament and whether it should have tax-raising powers, puts them in a 
position where they're saying that if they ever formed a Government, they would 
ask questions which could result in answers which would leave them with a 
policy which ever single political Party in Scotland has repudiated.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But- 
 
FORSYTH:                               If they get answers which say: we'd like 
a Parliament without tax-raising powers they'll then be landed with a policy 
which they've spent the last six years saying is unworkable.  So, the whole 
thing is a complete dog's breakfast. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But, what is- 
 
FORSYTH:                               And, it comes from proceeding for 
reasons of political opportunism which I think is a disgraceful way in which to 
deal with Constitutional matters. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But what is quite clear, what is quite 
clear is that the Scots want some say, some greater say, in their own affairs 
and they want a referendum to be able to tell everybody what they want.  Now 
you are saying we wouldn't give them a referendum, are you? 
 
FORSYTH:                               I'm saying nothing of the sort, until.. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, would you give them a referendum? 
 
FORSYTH:                               Well, until last week I was challenging 
the Labour Party to commit themselves to a referendum after an Act of 
Parliament had been obtained which is what happened in 1979.  That is what Tam 
Dalyell is suggesting, that is what others have suggested.  What Labour are 
proposing is to ask two questions: one about the tax raising powers and one 
about the Parliament, in advance of legislation.  Where does that leave, for 
example, the position of the proposals for the Parliament to be elected by 
Proportional Representation?  Why is there not to be a question about that if 
Labour are committed to plebiscites of this kind?  Why are they not asking the 
people of Scotland about that? 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But you're not dealing with the point 
I've just raised are you? 
 
FORSYTH:                                Well, well, I am.  I'm trying to show 
to you the absurdity of what Labour is suggesting.  They're having plebiscites 
in advance of consideration of the matter by Parliament.  If their position was 
genuine that they wanted to consult the people of Scotland then they should 
consult them on the whole package, so they know what's involved. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But, I am asking you, if I may - I mean 
if you deal with this point rather than dealing with what they have proposed - 
perhaps, we'll deal with what you're proposing.  What I'm asking-putting to you 
is that the people of Scotland clearly want some say over their own affairs 
through a referendum.  Now you tell me that you've been urging the Labour Party 
to hold such a referendum but you, the Tories, wouldn't do any such thing?  You 
would not allow them to have a referendum. 
 
FORSYTH:                               Well.. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              To tell the nation that they want some 
say over their own affairs. 
 
FORSYTH:                               Well, I have this old fashioned view of 
politics that what you should do is stand up for what you believe in and put it 
to the people.  And, if you win an election you then put it into practise.  If 
you lose an election, your opponents put their policies into practise.  I find 
it a slightly absurd idea that you should give people a referendum with the 
possibility that you end up with a policy with which you profoundly disagree 
and then you implement it.  That is what Labour have got themselves into this 
week.  They have allowed the possibility of a referendum to create a plebiscite 
which would result in people saying they did not want a Parliament with tax-
raising powers and they would then have to implement it. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                                Yep, as you say.  Would you, now let 
us assume..
                                                          
FORSYTH:                               The answer to the question is 'No'.  I 
am not going to advocate a policy which I believe would lead to the breakup of 
the United Kingdom, would be damaging for Scotland's interests and I..what I 
was going to say to you is if Labour are genuinely wanting to have plebiscites 
on these matters, which I think is a rather odd way of proceeding,why are they 
not asking the Scottish people about Proportional Representation? 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Right.  So.. 
 
FORSYTH:                               Why are they not asking them a question 
about do they agree that a Scottish Parliament would not have its legislation 
revised by the House of Lords - a major Constitutional change? 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              OK, you make.. 
 
FORSYTH:                               Why only the tax-raising powers being 
singled out? and of course, I know the answer to that question.  That is 
because Mr Blair has quite rightly recognised that a tax raising parliament 
would be a disaster for Scotland and a disaster for the United Kingdom.  And 
instead of standing up and saying: we're going to change the policy, he's come 
up with this particular volte-face which has left his Party north of the border 
looking particularly stupid and in disarray. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Alright.  So you you are saying the 
status quo - more or less - though you would make... 
 
FORSYTH:                               No, I'm not saying anything of the sort. 
No, no.  We have- I'm not saying- 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              No, no, but what you are saying is that 
you would not.. 
 
FORSYTH:                               Well, perhaps I could say what I'm 
saying rather than you tell me what I'm saying. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, I've been trying to understand 
what you've been saying because all you've been doing is attacking the Labour 
Party's proposals and everytime I've asked you whether you would offer the 
people of Scotland, under any circumstances, the chance to vote on their own 
affairs, your answer is to attack the Labour Party proposals. 
 
FORSYTH:                               Well, I don't know what you mean: a 
chance to vote on their own affairs? 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              A referendum. 
 
FORSYTH:                               Well, a referendum on what? 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              On whether there should be some kind of 
devolution for Scotland, which clearly they're now telling us they want. 
 
FORSYTH:                                Well, the reason..John, I know you 
don't spend much time looking at Scottish affairs but there is some kind of 
devolution for Scotland, as you put it.   The Scottish Office has devolved 
powers.. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              I've acknowledged that. 
 
FORSYTH:                               ..and the Scottish Grand Committee has 
been given enhanced powers to pass legislation, to hold the Executive to 
account.  The Scottish Grand Committee as reformed can do everything that a 
Scottish Parliament, without tax-raising powers can do and more - in so far, as 
it can hold the Prime Minister and senior members of the Government to account. 
The only thing that Labour's tax-raising Parliament could do is make the Scots 
pay more in income tax through a tartan tax.  That would be deeply damaging to 
Scotland's interest and, ultimately, I believe, lead to the breakup of the 
United Kingdom. 
 
                                       But, if I could just make one point 
which does effect England.  It does seem to me to be rather an odd thing that 
Labour are saying they're going to have plebiscites north of the border but 
that they're not going to consult people in England about the consequences of 
that policy for England.  Why don't they have a referendum, if this is the road 
they wish to go down?  Why don't they say that they will have a referendum in 
England on the powers of Scottish Members of Parliament, to vote on English 
issues, which have been devolved to the Scottish Parliament? 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You seem to be very keen on referendums 
except giving the people of Scotland the opportunity to vote in one for or 
against their own Parliament?   
 
FORSYTH:                               I'm very keen, despite the difficulties 
which you're giving me - I'm very keen to draw attention to the absurdity of 
what Labour is proposing and the internal contradictions in that argument.  If 
they are saying that they have some principle here that they believe - and I 
think they're wrong, I think a referendum should be after legislation so people 
clearly know what they're voting for - but if they're saying that they're now 
in favour of plebiscites on these matters, why are these plebiscites confined 
to north of the border? Why are the English not getting a say on the 
consequences of their tax-raising Parliament proposals for England? 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Alright.  
 
FORSYTH:                               Why can it be right for seventy-two 
Scottish Members of Parliament to vote on English Health, English Housing, 
English Education - all those areas, apart from Defence and Foreign Affairs.. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Right. Final very quick thought. 
 
FORSYTH:                               Hang on a second this is an important 
point - which have been devolved to Scotland but the English will not be able 
to vote on these Scottish matters.  That is the West Lothian question. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Yeah. 
 
FORSYTH:                               That is the question that Tam Dalyell is 
asking again - say it again Tam is the message that we're putting to Tam 
Dalyell and the other people, who are committed to the Union and who are 
appalled by this opportunism by the Labour Party. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Michael Forsyth, many thanks.