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ON THE RECORD
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 30.6.96
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Labour HAS changed its policy by advocating referendums,
but hasn't that
spiked the Tories' guns? In our Glasgow Studio is the Scottish Secretary
Michael Forsyth.
Good afternoon, Mr Forsyth.
MICHAEL FORSYTH MP: Hello.
HUMPHRYS: You must be feeling a wee bit sick this
weekend, mustn't you? Because last week you were crowing, 'cos you were
saying: we've got them on a run. Now, Blair is in trouble. But, Mr Blair has
won the support of his Party for his new policy and the support of the people
of Scotland.
FORSYTH: Well, I'll take that question as a bit
of a joke really. We've seen his front bench spokesman on Constitutional
Affairs resign in disgust. We've seen the former Minister at the Scottish
Office, Harry Ewing, the Chairman of the Constitutional Convention, resign and
complain about the treatment. We've seen the Chairman, the Labour Chairman of
the Scottish Affairs Select Committee, describe Mr Blair's action as a kick in
the teeth. And, we've seen Labour damaged not just by their retreat on
devolution but damaged because it's become apparent to everyone in Scotland
that Labour policy in Scotland is not determined by the Scottish Labour Party
but is determined by Mr Blair and some people in London. And, that six years
work with the Constitutional Convention, to build a coalition between the
Liberals and the Trade Unions for their proposals for a Scottish Parliament
were torn up. And, we now have the Liberals attacking them, we have the STUC
attacking them. So, I'm not sure why you think I should be depressed?
HUMPHRYS: Well perhaps you've not read The
Scotsman this morning and the Scotsman on Sunday? We've seen what the poll
there tells us, that the people of Scotland want what Mr Blair is now offering
them - that is a referendum. They even, they even, want a Scottish Parliament
with tax-raising powers.
FORSYTH: Well, the poll in Scotland on Sunday
shows that forty-one per cent - at least, one of the polls this morning shows
that forty-one per cent of the people of Scotland - believe that Labour's
proposals for Constitutional reform will lead to the breakup of the United
Kingdom and I'm certainly depressed about that. As to the support for a
referendum, there's nothing new about that. Indeed, I was challenging Labour
to have a referendum after their Bill, if they ever, of course, formed a
Government, became an Act. To have a referendum in the same way as happened
with the Scotland Act which of course was defeated by the people of Scotland
who rejected devolution at that time.
To have a referendum in advance of
legislation is absurd and that's not just my view. That's what Tam Dalyell is
saying and Tam Dalyell is quite rightly pointing out that it is a
Constitutional nonsense to ask questions in advance. And, Mr Blair's proposal
to ask questions in advance of the legislation about the existence of the
Parliament and whether it should have tax-raising powers, puts them in a
position where they're saying that if they ever formed a Government, they would
ask questions which could result in answers which would leave them with a
policy which ever single political Party in Scotland has repudiated.
HUMPHRYS: But-
FORSYTH: If they get answers which say: we'd like
a Parliament without tax-raising powers they'll then be landed with a policy
which they've spent the last six years saying is unworkable. So, the whole
thing is a complete dog's breakfast.
HUMPHRYS: But, what is-
FORSYTH: And, it comes from proceeding for
reasons of political opportunism which I think is a disgraceful way in which to
deal with Constitutional matters.
HUMPHRYS: But what is quite clear, what is quite
clear is that the Scots want some say, some greater say, in their own affairs
and they want a referendum to be able to tell everybody what they want. Now
you are saying we wouldn't give them a referendum, are you?
FORSYTH: I'm saying nothing of the sort, until..
HUMPHRYS: Well, would you give them a referendum?
FORSYTH: Well, until last week I was challenging
the Labour Party to commit themselves to a referendum after an Act of
Parliament had been obtained which is what happened in 1979. That is what Tam
Dalyell is suggesting, that is what others have suggested. What Labour are
proposing is to ask two questions: one about the tax raising powers and one
about the Parliament, in advance of legislation. Where does that leave, for
example, the position of the proposals for the Parliament to be elected by
Proportional Representation? Why is there not to be a question about that if
Labour are committed to plebiscites of this kind? Why are they not asking the
people of Scotland about that?
HUMPHRYS: But you're not dealing with the point
I've just raised are you?
FORSYTH: Well, well, I am. I'm trying to show
to you the absurdity of what Labour is suggesting. They're having plebiscites
in advance of consideration of the matter by Parliament. If their position was
genuine that they wanted to consult the people of Scotland then they should
consult them on the whole package, so they know what's involved.
HUMPHRYS: But, I am asking you, if I may - I mean
if you deal with this point rather than dealing with what they have proposed -
perhaps, we'll deal with what you're proposing. What I'm asking-putting to you
is that the people of Scotland clearly want some say over their own affairs
through a referendum. Now you tell me that you've been urging the Labour Party
to hold such a referendum but you, the Tories, wouldn't do any such thing? You
would not allow them to have a referendum.
FORSYTH: Well..
HUMPHRYS: To tell the nation that they want some
say over their own affairs.
FORSYTH: Well, I have this old fashioned view of
politics that what you should do is stand up for what you believe in and put it
to the people. And, if you win an election you then put it into practise. If
you lose an election, your opponents put their policies into practise. I find
it a slightly absurd idea that you should give people a referendum with the
possibility that you end up with a policy with which you profoundly disagree
and then you implement it. That is what Labour have got themselves into this
week. They have allowed the possibility of a referendum to create a plebiscite
which would result in people saying they did not want a Parliament with tax-
raising powers and they would then have to implement it.
HUMPHRYS: Yep, as you say. Would you, now let
us assume..
FORSYTH: The answer to the question is 'No'. I
am not going to advocate a policy which I believe would lead to the breakup of
the United Kingdom, would be damaging for Scotland's interests and I..what I
was going to say to you is if Labour are genuinely wanting to have plebiscites
on these matters, which I think is a rather odd way of proceeding,why are they
not asking the Scottish people about Proportional Representation?
HUMPHRYS: Right. So..
FORSYTH: Why are they not asking them a question
about do they agree that a Scottish Parliament would not have its legislation
revised by the House of Lords - a major Constitutional change?
HUMPHRYS: OK, you make..
FORSYTH: Why only the tax-raising powers being
singled out? and of course, I know the answer to that question. That is
because Mr Blair has quite rightly recognised that a tax raising parliament
would be a disaster for Scotland and a disaster for the United Kingdom. And
instead of standing up and saying: we're going to change the policy, he's come
up with this particular volte-face which has left his Party north of the border
looking particularly stupid and in disarray.
HUMPHRYS: Alright. So you you are saying the
status quo - more or less - though you would make...
FORSYTH: No, I'm not saying anything of the sort.
No, no. We have- I'm not saying-
HUMPHRYS: No, no, but what you are saying is that
you would not..
FORSYTH: Well, perhaps I could say what I'm
saying rather than you tell me what I'm saying.
HUMPHRYS: Well, I've been trying to understand
what you've been saying because all you've been doing is attacking the Labour
Party's proposals and everytime I've asked you whether you would offer the
people of Scotland, under any circumstances, the chance to vote on their own
affairs, your answer is to attack the Labour Party proposals.
FORSYTH: Well, I don't know what you mean: a
chance to vote on their own affairs?
HUMPHRYS: A referendum.
FORSYTH: Well, a referendum on what?
HUMPHRYS: On whether there should be some kind of
devolution for Scotland, which clearly they're now telling us they want.
FORSYTH: Well, the reason..John, I know you
don't spend much time looking at Scottish affairs but there is some kind of
devolution for Scotland, as you put it. The Scottish Office has devolved
powers..
HUMPHRYS: I've acknowledged that.
FORSYTH: ..and the Scottish Grand Committee has
been given enhanced powers to pass legislation, to hold the Executive to
account. The Scottish Grand Committee as reformed can do everything that a
Scottish Parliament, without tax-raising powers can do and more - in so far, as
it can hold the Prime Minister and senior members of the Government to account.
The only thing that Labour's tax-raising Parliament could do is make the Scots
pay more in income tax through a tartan tax. That would be deeply damaging to
Scotland's interest and, ultimately, I believe, lead to the breakup of the
United Kingdom.
But, if I could just make one point
which does effect England. It does seem to me to be rather an odd thing that
Labour are saying they're going to have plebiscites north of the border but
that they're not going to consult people in England about the consequences of
that policy for England. Why don't they have a referendum, if this is the road
they wish to go down? Why don't they say that they will have a referendum in
England on the powers of Scottish Members of Parliament, to vote on English
issues, which have been devolved to the Scottish Parliament?
HUMPHRYS: You seem to be very keen on referendums
except giving the people of Scotland the opportunity to vote in one for or
against their own Parliament?
FORSYTH: I'm very keen, despite the difficulties
which you're giving me - I'm very keen to draw attention to the absurdity of
what Labour is proposing and the internal contradictions in that argument. If
they are saying that they have some principle here that they believe - and I
think they're wrong, I think a referendum should be after legislation so people
clearly know what they're voting for - but if they're saying that they're now
in favour of plebiscites on these matters, why are these plebiscites confined
to north of the border? Why are the English not getting a say on the
consequences of their tax-raising Parliament proposals for England?
HUMPHRYS: Alright.
FORSYTH: Why can it be right for seventy-two
Scottish Members of Parliament to vote on English Health, English Housing,
English Education - all those areas, apart from Defence and Foreign Affairs..
HUMPHRYS: Right. Final very quick thought.
FORSYTH: Hang on a second this is an important
point - which have been devolved to Scotland but the English will not be able
to vote on these Scottish matters. That is the West Lothian question.
HUMPHRYS: Yeah.
FORSYTH: That is the question that Tam Dalyell is
asking again - say it again Tam is the message that we're putting to Tam
Dalyell and the other people, who are committed to the Union and who are
appalled by this opportunism by the Labour Party.
HUMPHRYS: Michael Forsyth, many thanks.
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