................................................................................
ON THE RECORD INTERVIEW WITH KEN MAGINNIS
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 17.3.96
................................................................................
JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon. Is the government in
the process of making another concession to the IRA? Some MPs here and in
Northern Ireland think it is - and we'll be talking to the Ulster Unionists.
Could this be a fudge too far? That's after the News read by MOIRA STUART
NEWS
HUMPHRYS:
But first, Northern Ireland. On Friday
night the leaders of the different parties were handed a document which was
intending to inject new momentum into the drive towards a permanent peace. It
seemed to suggest that the issue of getting rid of paramilitary weapons
shouldn't be allowed to block discussions of other matters at the all party
talks in June. And - for the first time - that Dublin should have a say in
matters that had been regarded as purely the concern of Northern Ireland. The
Ulster Unionists were furious. Ken Maginnis is their security spokesman.
Good afternoon to you, Mr Maginnis.
KEN MAGINNIS: Good afternoon, John.
HUMPHRYS: Sir Patrick Mayhew said yesterday
morning that when you'd had the chance to have a proper look at the document,
considered what was in it at some length, then you'd calm down and you ought to
calm down. Have you calmed down?
MAGINNIS Well, I haven't got terribly excited
about the document. There's nothing really surprising in it, except, that as
usual with documents prepared jointly by London and Dublin Governments, it's
full of ambiguities and it's those ambiguities which picked up by the press and
put forward in the form of a question to politicians like myself, which cause
anxiety and sometimes cause a fairly - how would I put it - angry reaction.
One of the things that has occurred here is that we've been bounced with a
co-ordinating committee involving as well as the parties, the two governments
and that, of course, is seen as giving the Irish Government an entry into the
affairs in Strand One, where it has no say whatsoever. Now, that may not be
the case, but it is the fact that this sort of all things to all men document
causes more problems than it resolves.
HUMPHRYS: Yes, Strand One for people who don't
understand the somewhat arcane terms that we're using as the internal affairs
of Northern Ireland, and Dick Spring - the Deputy Prime Minister of the
Republic - assured us this morning that there was absolutely no question of
Dublin getting involved in that.
MAGINNIS: Well, that is reassuring, and the other
thing of course that needs to be dealt with and which is crucial to any
progress, is what in fact we mean by addressing the question of
decommissioning. Now, we had asked both governments to expand on the
statement that they'd made earlier about addressing decommissioning. Does
this mean that we go in, we sit around a table, and we say "well
decommissioning is important ad we'll look at it in three months' time, in six
months' time". Is that addressing it? Or is it in fact something, as we feel,
that must be dealt with in a substantive way at the very outset. Because,
unless it is our way, then we will not be able to make progress.
Let me just put down that marker. We
can't make progress while the whole question of decommissioning and what
happens to this vast armoury of illegal guns and explosives is still
unresolved.
HUMPHRYS: Well again, this morning Mr Spring said
yes, it would be a priority, it would be at the top of the talks. You smile
at that. Does that suggest that you don't believe that assurance?
MAGINNIS: Well, as I say, I'm an Ulster Unionist
and Ulster Unionists tend to speak bluntly and honestly and straightforwardly,
and I just wish we could get rid of this round the side of the house, in
through the back door approach that we constantly have to grapple with, as far
as our dealings with the two governments, and indeed some other parties, is
concerned.
HUMPHRYS: Well, let's be clear what you mean when
you talk about dealing with decommissioning in a substantive way. Now, are you
saying...let's assume first of all that they're true to their word, that this
is the first item on the agenda, are you saying that you must have something
very clear out of that discussion before you will move on to anything else and
if so, what is it, what is your - as they say - bottom line on this, what is
the minimum you will accept on decommissioniong?
MAGINNIS: Two points - first and foremost, those
representing four point eight per cent of the total electorate, Sinn Fein and
IRA, with other paramilitary organisations who have even less support, much
less support at the ballot box, have held this society to ransom for twenty
-five years. Therefore, we must resolve that problem first of all. We
initially, as a party said there needed to be total decommissioning.
Government then ameliorated that and said, no there has to be a properly
scheduled agenda and the first.... of arms, the first fears of that agenda must
be implemented before talks. Mitchell then came along and once again watered
that down to a degree and said, no, let's get into talks and then you can deal
with decommissioning. Now, what we are basically saying is we've made two
adjustments, we have tried to accommodate a political process, but we can't get
beyond the stage that we will have to have a properly scheduled agenda in place
and see some tangible evidence that that can be implemented in real terms,
tangible terms.
HUMPHRYS: Alright, well, what does that mean, what
does tangible evidence mean, what do you want them to do? You say you're
original position was you wanted them to get rid of their weapons, full stop.
You've pulled away from that under a certain amount of pressure. Where are
you standing at the moment?
MAGINNIS: Well, we've got to see weapons, we've
got to see an agreement that there will be a decommissioning body in place,
perhaps Mitchell Strand Two, if I can call it that. It may not be Mitchell,
it's unlikely that it would be a politician,
HUMPHRYS: This is Senator George Mitchell, from
the United States who chaired the Commission?
MAGINNIS: Yes, that's right. Because it's a
technical issue, disarmament and verification of the process, and you'll
remember it going back to nuclear disarmament, how that was handled and you
will remember again that political progress was not actually possible until you
had some sort of tangible evidence that decommissioning was taking place,
that's the important issue and that is what is required. There is no good in
us saying, right we'll get a political agreement all nice and neatly boxed and
tied up and the ribbons on it and find that the people who have held us to
ransom with illegal weapons and explosives for twenty-five years, are able to
do that yet again.
HUMPHRYS: Does your reading of the document, now
that you've had time to study it since Friday night, does it suggest to you
that the Government shares your view on that?
MAGINNIS: It's quite ambiguous on that particular
point. It does not clearly state that that is the case. Now we've heard a
assurance from Dick Spring, and I welcome that, neither myself or David Trimble
or any other member of the Ulster Unionist Party is seeking to put obstacles in
the way of progress. But what we're trying to do is to ensure that the right
foundation is laid, a foundation on which we can truly build a lasting
political agreement and something that will bring the stability that is
required within Northern Ireland.
HUMPHRYS: If they are being ambiguous, they're
being so deliberately, politicians tend to use ambiguity as a weapon in one
direction or another. What do you think they're up to then?
MAGINNIS: I think they're leaving certain options
open so that in fact, as I said using the analogy we can be trundled round the
side or in through the backdoor into something that we haven't really seen what
is on the table. This time we must know exactly what we're approaching, how
it's going to be approached and what use can be made of the process before we
get involved. Remember what happened in 1992. We went into that warning
government, cautioning government saying for heaven's sake don't allow this
process to start and then break down because society out there will be
disillusioned and it's on that disillusionment that paramilitary organisations
are able to progress their violent ways.
HUMPHRYS: You say that you've been pushed around a
bit until now and they want to trundle you around the corner, out of sight,
persumably where you can do no damage in this next stage. If you are not
prepared to be trundled around the corner.
MAGINNIS: And we're not.
HUMPHRYS: And you're not. Then what are you
prepared to do about it. How do you stop them trundling you away.
MAGINNIS: Well of course Ulster Unionists are the
largest, form the largest political party in Northern Ireland and while we want
to be reasonable and we want to have constructive dialogue with everyone, our
own government, the government in Dublin and other political parties who adhere
to constitutional methods, we can on the other hand say: hey look you go and
sort out the difficulties that you're creating before you ask us to engage with
you. And that's basically what we're saying now. It appears that Dick Spring
is prepared to do that, I would like to hear Sir Patrick Mayhew say that in
fact the fundamental difficulties that we have can be set aside.
HUMPHRYS: You sound as if...
MAGINNIS: ...because we have real assurances.
HUMPHRYS: You sound as if you are prepared to
trust Dick Spring rather more than Sir Patrick Mayhew.
MAGINNIS: Well I hope I didn't give that
impression. I'm prepared to use my judgement, my colleagues are prepared to use
theirs and it will be based on that judgement and twenty five years of very
often sad experiences that we will decide how and when we can move forward.
Now let me say again - we have no desire
to hold up the process - we've no desire to put obstacles in the way but when
we find other people putting obstacles or diverting the proper path that we
should be following, then of course we will be quite severe with them,
including the two governments.
HUMPHRYS: In other words, if you don't get what
you want and some people would say these two governments are being very
reasonable because it's terribly difficult to find - difficult that's a huge
understatement - to find a way around this. What you are actually saying is
from now on you do it our way, you accept the rules that we want for these
all-party talks or we won't play with you at all.
MAGINNIS: John it's not playing.
HUMPHRYS: No, no, of course it's not.
MAGINNIS: If you want to put it like that then of
course we have got that sort of determination but I think that's overstating
the case to a degree and you've got to look at the way in which we handled
affairs during the 1992 talks. We were the one party that put a comprehensive
and substantive paper on the table in Strand One, that was in terms of the
internal government of Northern Ireland, we made all sorts of arrangements and
concessions within that to try and reassure minority parties. In Strand Two we
were again the one party that put a substantive paper on the table proposing
how relationships between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic could
function and we put on the table also a bill of rights at that time which we
believed would be helpful. Nobody even bothered to open that quite mighty
document.
HUMPHRYS: That was then, that was then. Now what
about the future.
MAGINNIS: And we've got to learn lessons from then
John and that's all I'm saying. We have been constructive, we are determined
to get what the people of Northern Ireland have asked for again and again at
the ballot box those who have never resorted to violence, society must have
ownership of any peace process, it must not be down to paramilitary
organisations.
HUMPHRYS: You say you have been constructive, you
also say that you are now prepared to be obstructive if things go the way you
fear, perhaps they might go. And what I'm asking you is in what sense might
you be able to stop the British and Irish Governments doing what they appear to
want to do. For instance you will persumably take part in the elections but
after that will you go along to the talks, if the agenda doesn't suit you?
MAGINNIS: We, the Ulster Unionist Party, being the
largest party in Northern Ireland, will be core to anything that is happening
and I don't think that either Sir Patrick Mayhew or Dick Spring will be able to
lift David Trimble and myself and a few others by the scruff of the neck and
throw us out. We will be there seeing that there is fair play for the people
of Northern Ireland, we will be there to see that their wishes as expressed
again and again at the ballot box are not overridden and within that context
we'll be there to try to make accommodation with any other party who wishes to
adhere to constitutional principles. Surely you can't ask more than that of
us.
HUMPHRYS: Come what may you'll be at those talks?
MAGINNIS: Pardon?
HUMPHRYS: Come what may you'll be at those talks?
MAGINNIS: Sorry..
HUMPHRYS: Come what may - just a one word answer
if you wouldn't mind - come what may you'll be at those talks?
MAGINNIS: We will be core to the process you can
be assured of that.
HUMPHRYS: Ken Maginnis, thank you very much
indeed.
MAGINNIS: Thank you.
|