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ON THE RECORD
PETER MANDELSON INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 25.2.96
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Peter Mandelson, the Labour Party that
we're looking at today, the new Labour Party, is that it - is the project now
complete?
PETER MANDELSON MP: The project won't be complete until we
have arrived in government and had the opportunity to implement a programme to
transform Britain, to transform our economic performance as a country, to build
social cohesion in our country once again, to revitalise our political system
and to build a constructive and a confident relationship with Europe. Now all
that is a programme for the long-term, it needs to be underpinned by
intellectually coherent policies but it also, to be sustained over that time,
has to be supported by a broad coalition of support, a consensus across the
country which embraces both the centre and the left of British politics and
that's what we're about.
HUMPHRYS: So there are more changes to make to the
Labour Party itself, to the internal structures of the Labour Party, the way
the Party operates?
MANDELSON: Well, any organisation has either to
modernise or die. Ironically, the Conservative Party, through the years has
been better at modernising than the Labour Party. They modernised very
successfully after the post-war years, they modernised again when Mrs Thatcher
became its leader. In contrast, the Labour Party has been rather resistant to
change in the past, indeed, we even flirted for a short time with death in the
early 1980s. Now, all that has changed; Neil Kinnock came in, John Smith and
Tony Blair following him, have transformed the Labour Party. We have almost a
literally new Labour Party, not just simply in terms of our imagine and
presentation but our organisation and all the democratic reforms that have
taken place, the crucial introduction of one member one vote, but the policy
changes that have taken place too. Now what we're doing at this stage is
distilling those policies to create that coherent, a practical programme for
government to transform Britain that we can put into effect when we come into
office.
HUMPHRYS: But there are those who view those
changes with a degree of suspicion. Some say things haven't....
MANDELSON: Inevitably...
HUMPHRYS: Inevitably, some people say things
haven't changed that much and they point to the relationship with the Trade
Unions for instance and they say - when - if - you get into power it will be
the same old cosy relationship with the Trade Unions that has always existed.
MANDELSON: Well that it most definitely will not
be. I mean we've made two very dramatic changes. One is to reduce the
strength, the weight of the Trade Unions at our Party Conference quite
dramatically from the ninety per cent as it was two years ago to below fifty
per cent as it is this year. What we're also doing very crucially, is building
a mass Party of individual members, right across the country, who are not just
coming into the Labour Party, in unprecedented numbers, indeed at the time of
the next election you know, half our membership will be new. They'll have come
into the Labour Party since Tony Blair became leader, not because they disagree
with him but because they support the changes he's carrying through. Now what
we've got to do is to make sure that we don't just have very many more members
but we have more members actively involved in the life and work and campaigning
of the Party but also making sure that the decisions of the Party are in their
hands. And that is what is crucial and that is what everyone accepts,
including, I might say, the Trade Unions who have been at the forefront of
these changes.
HUMPHRYS: But as you say the decisions are not yet
in their hands because the Trade Unions control half the votes at the Party
Conference.
MANDELSON: They control below half the votes...just
below half. But that's not true and I think crucially the individual members
of the Party demonstrated, did they not, when we changed Clause Four of our
Party Constitution, that was put to ballots of individual members right across
the country, nobody strong armed them, nobody forced them to take the decision
they did, they voted overwhelmingly by a margin of nine to one in favour of the
New Labour Clause Four. And that I think is very very important indeed.
HUMPHRYS: So are you saying then that as it stands
at the moment it should remain, that's to say nearly half of the votes at the
Party Conference ought to be in the hands of the Trade Unions, is that what you
are saying?
MANDELSON: Well we're just implementing that change
now. Going below fifty per cent will take place that this year's Party
Conference and I think it's reasonable to see how that works. You've seen,
you've heard already in your film Tom Sawyer, the General Secretary of the
Party saying it's a dynamic relationship, I would call it an evolving
relationship. And I think the Trade Unions themselves will want to see how
these changes pan out in practice. But I think one thing is very very crucial
indeed and that is that we create thousands of links between the Labour Party
and the Trade Unions and that means thousands of links with individual Trade
Union members bringing them into a membership of the Labour Party and I'll tell
you why this is so important. A mass membership just doesn't give us strength
of numbers and much needed additional funds for our Party finances, it makes us
more representative as a Party, it puts us in touch with ordinary public
opinion across the country.
HUMPHRYS: So?
MANDELSON: And that's why we want very many more
individual members in the Party taking the decisions which are important, as
they already do incidentally, for example, in the selection of Members of
Parliament, that is now done on the basis of one member one vote and that is a
crucial relationship between the Labour Members of Parliament and the
grassroots of the Party and the individual members rather than the activists
and rather than the old style structures that dominated our Party in the past.
HUMPHRYS: Indeed, indeed, old style structures and
you say you want to see that evolve, how - how do you want to see that evolve,
how do you want to see it change?
MANDELSON: I want to see a mass membership which is
very much more active and which on crucial decisions, quite possibly, the
individual members of the Party are able to have their say in the future, in
the way they did over the change of our constitution and the introduction of
the Clause Four last year. I think that was a very important precedent, it
enfranchised and gave power to the individual members of the Party, which is
something that they are not going to give up. There is going to be no reversal
of that and I think in the case of the Trade Unions too, we saw how many Trade
Unions last years over Clause Four, directly consulted their individual
members. I think that was a very healthy development and I'm sure that they
all want to go further in that direction in the future.
HUMPHRYS: Indeed, indeed. Old style structures
and you say you want to see that evolve - how? How do you want to see that
evolve - how do you want to see it change?
MANDELSON: I want to see a mass membership which is
very much more active, and which on crucial decisions - quite possibly - the
individual Members of the Party are able to have their say in the future in the
way they did over the change of our Constitution and the introduction of the
Clause Four last year. I think that was a very important precedent. It
enfranchised and gave power to the individual Members of the Party which is
something that they are not going to give up.
HUMPHRYS: Right.
MANDELSON: There seemed to be no reversal of that
and I think in the case of the trade unions too we saw how many trade unions
last year over Clause Four directly consulted their individual members. I
think that was a very healthy development, and I'm sure that they'll want to go
further in that direction in the future.
HUMPHRYS: But, as that membership grows -
assuming that it does continue to grow - you'd want to see the relationship
between the trade unions and the Labour Party change with it. In other words,
there would be more power putting it very crudely, very unsubtly, with the
members as opposed to with the trade unions.
MANDELSON: That is the direction in which we're
going. That's what the trade unions have supported and as long as we have the
mass membership and the active mass membership who are involved in what we're
doing, then, we will be able to move further in that direction. But, I don't
think that those are changes that are on our agenda today or tomorrow. We're
only just implementing the reduction of the trade union bloc vote to below
fifteen per cent this year.
HUMPHRYS: Sure. Indeed. But, ultimately, one
member one vote would not be a pipedream from your point of view?
MANDELSON: One member, one vote has arrived. It is
in operation. It is an operation-
HUMPHRYS: In the sense that we've been talking
about.
MANDELSON: For key decisions like our Constitution,
and especially in relation to the selection of Members of Parliament it has
arrived - it will strengthen, it will develop. There will no going back on
that and that is absolutely crucial for people's understanding of the direction
in which the Party is going and its unity behind our Party Leadership.
HUMPHRYS: One interesting effect of that change -
the change in direction there - is that you would be seen as much less of a
class-based Party than you are now, and therefore much more compatible with the
Liberal Democrats. Would you like to see the relationship - your Party's
relationships with the Liberal Democrats - evolving? Becoming closer across a
range of issues?
MANDELSON: I think it's very important as I said
right at the outset that the programme that the next Labour Government - should
we be elected - implements is supported right across the country. We want a
consensus of public opinion across classes, across professions, right across
the country. Now that means building a coalition of support for what we're
doing which embraces both the centre and the left of British politics, the
leftward-thinking half of the country. Now, that I think does involve
co-operation with people - not just the Liberal Democrats by the way - but
co-operation with all those who want to sign up and support our programme of
national renewal. It means people in the business community for example, it
means people in voluntary organisations, it means every group, every interest,
every individual that wants to see our country transformed for the better in
the future.
HUMPHRYS: But, let's stick with the Liberal
Democrats for a moment, and talk about what happens after the Election. I'm
not here talking about pre-Electoral pacts and all stuff. You've ruled all
that out time and time again. How would the relationship, how might the
relationship with the Liberal Democrats work? Assuming that you got a majority
at the Election. Maybe, even a decent majority, so you wouldn't actually need
them. But, nonetheless, how would you want to deal with them?
MANDELSON: Well, I don't think it's a matter of
Electoral arithmetic or Parliamentary numbers.
HUMPHRYS: Absolutely.
MANDELSON: I mean the principle of co-operation is
important and the principle with building a coalition of support for what the
Labour government is doing right across the country is very important indeed.
We have already seen have we not an example of how it's worked in the last
week. I mean there are common strands of belief between ourselves and some
members of the Liberal Democrats. There are overlaps of policy.
HUMPHRYS: Sure.
MANDELSON: There's an identity of interest.
HUMPHRYS: Indeed, I understand that.
MANDELSON: For example, on the Scott Report, you
saw Robin Cook and Menzies Campbell holding a joint press conference.
HUMPHRYS: Yeah, I did. But, this is you in the
position, isn't it? United against a common foe. I'm talking about you in
Government, how you might work with the Liberal Democrats in Government.
MANDELSON: And what is good for Opposition would be
even more important to achieve, should opportunities arise in Government at
all. Now, let me just make one thing absolutely clear because you stated it as
given. Both Paddy Ashdown and Tony Blair have made it absolutely clear that
they're not interested in pacts or deals, or coalitions, or individuals taking
positions up here, there, or anywhere else. What we're talking about is the
principled co-operation between likeminded people in Parliament and across the
country to achieve the things that we think are so important for our country.
And, I think, what in practice what that means after the next Election is
should we be elected, a Labour government coming in with a programme of
policies which have to be implemented over the long term, which I hope the
Liberal Democrats will feel able and willing to support. Now we've still go to
hear from many of the Liberal Democrats about the sort of support they're
prepared to give to our programme. You've assumed that just because Paddy
Ashdown has ended equidistance between the Parties, that means he's signed up
to the Labour programme. It doesn't actually mean that, and I think that the
onus is on them to say what they believe and what they will support. In
Parliament I think there are opportunities for co-operation that we need to
harness.
HUMPHRYS: Given that you've looked at them for
that support that you would expect this principled co-operation as you put it,
might we see Liberal Democrats in Government Ministries?
MANDELSON: I don't think that arises and I think as
Paddy Ashdown and Tony Blair have ruled out talk of you know coalitions and
people, or positions, personal positions in Cabinets or anywhere else. They've
ruled it out, they don't want to address that, and I don't think the issue
arises now. What I do think is important-.
HUMPHRYS: Now. Might it at some stage in the
future ?
MANDELSON: It may do, but it's not something that
I think that arises in the discussions that may take place in the future or the
dialogue that is taking place between ourselves, not just with the Liberal
Democrats. Let me stress that John, but with all those right across the
country who support what we're doing, and that is what it is important to keep
our minds very much focused on throughout all this.
HUMPHRYS: For you to have that sort of principle
co-operation with the Liberal Democrats, staying with them for a moment,
suggests that you would have to embrace some kind of electoral reform. Are you
open to that?
MANDELSON: I think, it's very much more important
to talk about the strength and depth and coherence of our programme and what
we're doing for our country and making sure that the Labour Party is fully
electable....and wins the trust of people before we start talking
about...rather than talk about electoral expedience or short cuts into
Government. I also don't think that electoral reform is a touchstone of the
new politics. But my mind has moved on this. I'm much more open to the debate
about electoral reform than I have been in the past and of course if you're
going to have a referendum on the matter in the future, it's a debate that all
of us have to engage in.
HUMPHRYS: And what you would support is some sort
of alternative vote system, perhaps - rather than first past the post system?
MANDELSON: Well I think the principles of electoral
reform, in getting the key questions right in our mind, are important at the
outset. You want a fair system. We want a system that produces good and
effective government but we also want a system that produces good MPs. Now, I
think, the problem with Proportional Representation - which is why I'm not in
favour of Proportional Representation - is that although it's theoretically
fairer - there's a strict correlation between votes and seats - it will produce
a plethora of minority Parties.
HUMPHRYS: Right. So which system might you
prefer?
MANDELSON: Oftentimes, extreme Parties that won't
make for stable government. I also think it's very important that we don't
have a list system, a centrally imposed, nationally drawn up list system,
replacing the very important link between individual Members and Constituency
Parties.
If we were going to move towards a
different and fairer electoral system, I think that we should consider a system
in which people..individual voters are able to express a first, second and
third preference in their Constituency Parties - in their Constituencies.
HUMPHRYS: You're talking about here a fundamental
realignment of British politics, aren't you?
MANDELSON: I'm talking about the need to accept and
realise that if we are going to transform Britain, truly. If we really are
going to equip our country to face and take on those huge, economic changes and
challenges that are facing us, if we're really going to transform our society
and create the sort of one-nation society that we want, if we're going to
revitalise our politics in this country, we are not only looking at a programme
for the longterm, but a programme that in itself the Labour Party - however
strongly and competently it leads it - must have strong backing and consensus
of support across the country behind it. If that means realignment of people
across the country in support of what we're doing, then, yes, I am looking to
that.
HUMPHRYS: And if you get into government there
would be enormous strains on any new government - there are enormous strains,
particularly...(interruption)...precisely. Enormous strains and particularly
given as you're committed to doing so much in the first year. Do you want to
change the way the Government operates?
MANDELSON: I think, it's very important to realise
that if we are elected after the Election nobody is going to give us a
honeymoon for a split second. The Tories, whatever shape they're in - I mean
we see at the moment, wheels flying off the wagon in all directions but they
may get their act together under Michael Portillo, or whoever it will be after
the next Election in Opposition. The Tory Press won't give us a moment's
rest. We've got to make sure that we have our programme up, ready to go and
our ability to take control of Government, rather than allowing the machinery
of Government to take control of us, right from the word 'go'.
HUMPHRYS: So, you might have super Ministries, for
instance? Much more, in some respects, more Presidential style type of
government?
MANDELSON: Well, I don't think that's the same
thing, at all. I agree with my colleague, Alan Simpson, who said that we don't
want a Presidential system of government.
HUMPHRYS: But super Ministries - that sort of
notion?
MANDELSON: Well the point about super ministers is
that a Prime Minister can't bring about all the change and push forward the
Government by himself. He needs colleagues working collectively with him and
there are, of course, in Government, what's called the 'wicked issues'. The
sort of elusive issues which are difficult for any single Department or single
Minister to get hold of. Let me give you an example - something that concerns
me very much, indeed and that is the plight, the position of young people in
our society, young people who fail in our Education system, people who are
casualties of broken families, young people who resort to juvenile crime. Now,
that requires action right across Government. It requires cross-Departmental
working which super ministers, as you put it, might take the lead in, together
with the Prime Minister.
HUMPHRYS: Super minister of youth then, for
instance?
MANDELSON: It may well be.
HUMPHRYS: The sort of things you've been talking
about this morning are pretty radical. You might not find it too difficult,
too easy to get all of this through. And, I'm thinking about one of the
suggestions that you've already made that we've heard about from your book
because it was in The Guardian yesterday. And, that is this idea of a five
thousand pound dowry - if that's the right word - for married couples.
Perhaps, unmarried couples, you might want to clear that up. Is this a kind of
new moralism that we're seeing now?
MANDELSON: It's not a new moralism. It's nobody
preaching any particular way in which people have to conduct their lives. But,
what it is is recognition that if we want to build a strong society the
foundation and cornerstone of that society are the way in which people act and
work and behave together in families. My concern about young people in this
country stems very much from the breakdown of family life. And, I believe it's
very important that young people..many of the young people in my constitutency
who don't have wealthy families, who don't have savings, who don't have parents
who are in a position to give them the best start in life.
HUMPHRYS: Even the unmarried ones?
MANDELSON: No I think what we're looking at in the
proposal that we're making is people who come together, who make that
commitment to one another - and I think that marriage is probably the simplest
and probably the only....
HUMPHRYS: So that is pretty moralistic then.
HUMPHRYS: It is not a question of morals. It is a
question of recognising how the overwhelming majority of people choose to spend
their lives, get married and to bring up children. The point of this is not to
promote marriage but it is to promote the sort of stable, strong family life
that provides the best environment in which to bring up young people in this
country.
HUMPHRYS: I can almost see the smoke coming out of
the ears of various members of your Party, even as you speak, and as you've
been speaking for the past twenty minutes, or so.
MANDELSON: John, I think you are behind the times
if you think-
HUMPHRYS: Well, there are those - we saw some of
them in the film there - those who are deeply suspicious of you and all your
works. What do you say to those members? Do you say: well, go off and join
Arthur Scargill's new Party, or what?
MANDELSON: Well I say first of all to you that the
couple of people who have spoken the way that they did gave their views before
the extracts of our book appeared in the Guardian and before they even....
(interruption)... well I would suggest to them that they wait and get the book,
they can have a free copy from me and they can read it for themselves before
they start jumping to conclusions.
What I am trying to do is, not only to
represent my Party in the best way that I can to reflect the anger, the anxiety
and the aspirations that people have in Hartlepool and the people that we speak
for as a Party, to do everything I can to get our message across effectively,
so that we maximise our support, get a thumping great majority and have the
chance at last to put into affect the policies and the programme that our
country so desperately needs.
HUMPHRYS: Peter Mandelson, thank you very much.
MANDELSON: Thank you.
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