Interview with Brian Mawhinney




       
       
       
 
 
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                                 ON THE RECORD 
                      
 
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1                                 DATE:  31.3.96
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JOHN HUMPHRYS:                         Good afternoon.  The Tories have 
revealed their strategy for fighting the next Election.  We'll be asking the 
man in charge of the campaign - the Chairman of the Party - how he's going to 
make it work. That's after the News read by Chris Lowe. 
 
NEWS 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But first, the General Election.  The 
Tories are still disastrously behind in the opinion polls and there's not long 
now for them to catch up. This weekend, the Chairman of the Party, Brian 
Mawhinney, told us how they're going to do it - more or less.  They're going to 
tell us that we've scarcely ever had it better - and if we vote Tory it'll go 
on getting better. 
 
                                       Well Mr Mawhinney is with me.  Now, 
we've learned something else about your strategy today, haven't we?  This idea 
of a television debate, a live television debate with Tony Blair.  Is that 
going to happen? 
 
BRIAN MAWHINNEY MP:                    There you go, believing what you read in 
the newspapers again John.  I thought Mr Blair was pretty unpersuasive this 
morning.  He gets trounced by John Major twice a week in the House of Commons 
on debates.  As for the General Election, it may be more than a year away. 
We'll develop our strategy and we'll let you know whenever it becomes imminent. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Why don't you know yet? 
 
MAWHINNEY:                             Because I'm addressing issues on a 
weekly, monthly, Quarterly basis, in a plan that leads up to the General 
Election.  This Parliament's got more than a year to run.  Now we'll have the 
General Election whenever the Prime Minister says and we'll be ready for it, 
but I'm not going to divert my attention to things which may or may not happen 
in the future when I have real pressing issues to address today.  But I think 
Mr Blair would be pretty unenthusiastic. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well - come to that in a minute - but 
there's a principle here, isn't there?   Either this sort of thing is good for 
democracy or it's not.  You must have a view on that, don't you? 
 
MAWHINNEY:                             I don't have a view that it's a 
principle.  What is very important is the democratic process and we probably 
have the most open, democratic General Election process of - I would guess - 
any country in the world and we certainly don't have that formalised 
presidential type of election that the United States has and which, at least,
some of your colleagues would like to push us in the direction.  This is  
genuinely speculation: I heard Central Office officials were discounting this 
as speculation.  This is generally and specifically speculation but being 
floated by one of your colleagues. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But-As you say part of the democratic 
process, this should, according to many people, be a part of the democratic 
process.  Now you say you haven't decided yet but you would have a view, would 
you not as to whether or not this sort of thing is, or is not, a part of the 
democratic process?   
 
MAWHINNEY:                             Well anybody talking-you can make 
anything part of the democratic process.  You wanted to make it part of the 
principle of democracy.  What I'm telling you is that during a General 
Election- 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              I've not asked for your view on that. 
What you believe it ought to be, that's what I'm asking you. 
 
MAWHINNEY:                             General-general-Whether we have in a 
General Election a debate between Mr Major and Mr Blair is something which we 
may turn our minds to.  Frankly, I'm really pretty satisfied with the way we 
conduct General Elections in this country and I'm not sure that I identify the 
democratic deficit to which you're making reference. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, can I offer you a suggestion- 
 
MAWHINNEY:                             Always. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                               - thankyou - as to why you may not yet 
have decided?  And, that is that at the moment Mr Major is massively behind in 
the polls - we can't, we can't dispute that.  If we get closer to the Election 
and if he is still massively behind in the polls, then he may well want one. If 
the gap has narrowed he may not.  Now, that's a pretty cynical approach,isn't 
it? 
 
MAWHINNEY:                             Well yes it is and I'm sorry that you 
introduced it because I certainly don't introduce it and it isn't part of my 
calculations.  If we thought that a debate was appropriate we'd have a debate. 
If we think it's not - and thus far, can I stress, we have not been attracted 
to the idea of debates - then we won't have one.   But the idea that-that a 
General Election is somehow less democratic as a consequence is-is nonsense. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But if that's not the reason, then what 
other reason might there be for delaying a decision on this? 
 
MAWHINNEY:                             It's not delaying a decision.  It's not 
even an issue that has come across my thought process or my desk.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Oh but you've been asked about this many 
times in the past.  Mr Major has been asked about it.  The invitation is there. 
As you know, Tony Blair this morning accepted it with alacrity, as he put it - 
so, it's there. 
 
MAWHINNEY:                             No, it's not.  What - for the sake of 
accuracy - what he was responding to was a speculative story in one of the 
national newspapers pooh-pooh'd by Central Office officials.  And, having been 
put in a position where he had to make a judgment one way or the other, he 
decided to say: Yes he'd like one - in the face of being pushed around and 
trampled under foot in the most gracious way by Mr Major twice a week in the 
House of Commons.  It is not an issue that has even come across my desk.  So,
I'm not deferring a decision.  I haven't even thought about it, John. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well you say you haven't thought about 
it at all, which is a bit odd really since lots of people have been talking 
about it for a long time.  
 
MAWHINNEY:                             Well, maybe I have other things to think 
about. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Of course, of course and I understand, 
accept that you're a very busy man.  But here's Tony Blair having said firmly 
and positively we would be very, very, very happy to do this.  You're dithering 
about it, you can't decide. 
 
MAWHINNEY:                             Well, forgive me.  Let me try just one 
more time.  It isn't a question of can't decide John. I haven't even thought 
about it.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So, won't decide. 
 
MAWHINNEY:                             I haven't even thought about it because 
we're talking about a General Election which may come over a year in the future 
and- 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Alright, but I'm inviting you to think
about it now, you see.  I mean, here we are, we've discussed it.  You know the 
issues - certainly as well as I do.  Probably a lot better than I do - and 
you've thought about it since at least this morning because it's in the papers 
this morning and it's been reported this morning.  Having thought about it, Mr 
Chairman, what's your view? 
 
MAWHINNEY:                             And, John, what sort of a Chairman do 
you think I would be if on the back of a speculative piece in a national 
newspaper - and incidentally, if I was to respond to every speculative piece in 
national newspapers or on the media I would never get anything else done- 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Right.  
 
MAWHINNEY:                             What sort of a Chairman do you think I 
would be if on the back of a speculative piece in the national newspaper and a 
question from the eminent John Humphrys, I was suddenly to make a fundamental 
decision about the nature of the General Election?  Uou'd hold me in pretty low 
regard as a Chairman and rightly so.  So I'm not going to do it John. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So you haven't made a decision. 
 
MAWHINNEY:                             I haven't thought about it John. You're 
not going to-forgive me but I'm not going to allow you to paint me into a 
corner as somebody who can't make up his mind.  It has not thus far been an 
issue John. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Alright.  So is it still open then? 
 
MAWHINNEY:                             John, we will have a General Election, 
we will conduct that in a way which will be open and democratic.  We will draw 
on the experience of previous General Elections in which we have not had the 
sort of debate that you have in mind.  And, whenever we are ready to reveal the 
nature and the content of our General Election strategy, you'll be among the 
first to know. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              I appreciate that.  But as we speak you 
haven't closed your mind to it?  It is open? 
 
MAWHINNEY:                             John, I haven't even thought about it. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Alright, so much for the medium as it 
were.   What about the message?  Now, you've been painting - you, Mr Major, Mr 
Heseltine have been painting - a very glowing picture of life in Britain over 
the last few days, at your Conference.  That doesn't square with the experience 
of many people.  You're telling 'em in essence they've never had it so good, or 
something vaguely akin to that message and a lot of people may feel they've 
actually never had it so bad, or at least they're having it pretty bad at the 
moment.  So, your message isn't going to wash with them is it? 
 
MAWHINNEY:                             Well not if your analysis is correct.
But fortunately your analysis isn't correct.  What we have been saying-What I 
said explicity at Harrogate was people are going to want to know where are the 
jobs and the personal prosperity going to come from in the twenty-first 
century, against the challenge of the Asian economies - about which Michael 
Heseltine spoke so eloquently - in terms of the jobs that people want.  
 
                                       Now,  the truth is that Unemployment has 
been falling in this country steadily for the best part of two and a half years 
and faster than in any of our major competitor countries in Europe.  People's 
real disposal income is going up and is going to go up considerably more in the 
next financial year.  We are creating more jobs than any other country in 
Europe.  We are attracting more investment than ever before in our history.  
That's jobs and personal prosperity and local community prosperity.  And, we're 
attracting a disproportionate amount as far as the European Union is concerned, 
into this country.  And, our exports are going up all of the time, record level 
after record level.  
 
                                       So, if people are interested in jobs and 
increasing in personal prosperity, then, as I said at Harrogate, we will invite 
people to look around them to see that some very tough and very unpopular 
political decisions which we had to take coming out of the recession, which 
were the right decisions.  We said then that they were the right decisions, 
they are now demonstrably the right decisions.  And, we wil say to people, 
against that, where jobs are being created, where unemployment is going down, 
where personal prosperity is going up, ask yourself the question whether a 
Labour Party that will have a Social Chapter and a Minimum Wage - both of which 
independent experts say will increase Unemployment and reduce jobs - and a 
deal conducted in secret with the trade unions - to allow all of that 
centralised trade union dominated issues - is that going to enhance the 
creation of jobs and personal prosperity or is it going to reduce it?  I have 
no doubt what their answer is. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, I shan't even attempt to answer 
myself that last question - it's not for me to do that.  But you have painted 
there a pretty rosy picture.  Now let's contrast that with the real experience 
of many people who are worried about security.  You say you've created more 
jobs but they're worried about longterm security.  Old people are worried about 
losing their homes if they fall ill and have to go into a nursing home; people 
are worried about paying for their children's university education; negative 
equity.  There are all sorts of problems facing people today which may well say 
to them: actually, I don't feel as if I've never had it so good and your danger 
is that you may look rather out of touch.  Isn't that the case? 
 
MAWHINNEY:                             Well, first of all, the 'I've never had 
it so good' phrase is yours.  It's not mine.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              No, no.  I didn't say you used that 
phrase but the message you gave was quite clearly that putting aside... 
 
MAWHINNEY:                             Life is better is the message that I- 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Life is better. 
 
MAWHINNEY:                             I'm very happy to say that.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Some people may say: actually, life 
isn't better because I'm very worried now, in a way that, perhaps, I didn't 
used to be.  
 
MAWHINNEY:                             Let me try to remember the four issues 
that you raised.  The first was job security and yes of course, we have moved 
from a circumstance where people got a job for life.  But in a competitive 
economy, in a worldwide competitive economy the best security is to be 
competitive in the marketplace and that is increasingly what is happening in 
this country.  And, it requires a change of thought process as well, in as much 
as life training, life education, is part of that job framework and we have 
done so.   
 
                                       You said, secondly, about old people 
being concerned.  The Prime Minister, yesterday, announced that in a few weeks 
time we'd be unveiling a White Paper, precisely because we recognise that there 
is an issue about the care of very old people in nursing homes and residential 
homes and that we want to offer them the assurance and the reassurance that 
they should have and that they can expect from a Conservative government that 
believes in wealth cascading down through the generations. 
 
                                       You asked about universities.  The truth 
is that if you look at the profile in this country and in other countries, the 
number of young people going to university is rising and that there is no 
differential, as I understand it.  I have no reason to believe that there is 
any differential that has disproportionately affected those on lower incomes 
going to university.  And, on negative equity, the best circumstance for people 
who are in negative equity is a growing economy, with a housing market that is 
starting to move and both of those are now in place.  
 
                                       Of course, I feel sorry for people who 
are in negative equity but the growth of the economy and the movement of the 
housing market, which again independent experts are saying is now taking place, 
that's the best way to address that fundamental concern.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You talk about the growth of the economy 
- and you claim credit for that - in fact, the things that have happened to the 
economy that have led to that growth have been in spite of what you set out to 
do, rather than because of them.  
 
MAWHINNEY:                             Oh, come on, John.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Membership of ERM, central to your whole 
economic policy. You were forced out of ERM, against your wishes.  
 
MAWHINNEY:                             John, the single most important thing 
about an economy that grows is a government that gets inflation down and keeps 
inflation down and reassures people of its commitment to keep inflation down.  
That creates the framework in which others - businesses, industry, small and 
medium-sized businesses, in particular - can go out there into the marketplace, 
can become competitive, can sell their goods, can offer a service, can employ 
people.  That's what happened. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              And it's happened because you were force 
out and much of it has happened because you were forced out of ERM.  Days 
before being forced to leave the ERM, you were saying: this is the cornerstone 
of our policy.  Now, you were forced out of it and many of those things that 
have happened happened because you were forced out of it.  So, it wasn't down 
to your positive actions... 
 
MAWHINNEY:                             Forgive me, there's just a smidgen of 
revisionism in that analysis.  Certainly, we came out of ERM - that's not 
revisionism.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              And had to - didn't want to.  
 
MAWHINNEY:                             And other countries did as well and it 
is worth remembering that that period in the ERM was because we were using that 
as a mechanism to drive down inflation.  We got to a point where we had to 
develop other means and that is certainly right.  But, it was also against a 
background, John, where Government is now spending forty-two per cent of the 
GDP and we are going down against a target of forty or less.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But... 
 
MAWHINNEY:                             Let me make the point.  The average in 
the other fourteen European countries - European Union countries -is fifty-two 
per cent and rising.  So, you said that we had no role to play.  The fact is 
that we have sought to position ourselves, in economic terms, in economic 
framework terms, in a way which allows business and industry to go out and do 
what they're good at and that's what's happening.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Didn't Tony Blair put his finger on 
what's really going to be your problem and that is the perception of the 
Government as being competent or incompetent and he pointed out this morning 
you will be seen as an incompetent government and we've had a classic example 
of that in the last week or so and that is beef.  You didn't consult with 
people when you learned what was going on and as a result of that we're in the 
mess that we're in today over it.  
 
MAWHINNEY:                             That's nonsense, absolute nonsense.  The 
scientists came to us and they said: we have ten cases.  We have ten cases 
because we have new scientific techniques.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              And you didn't then take that evidence, 
take that information to the European Union for instance, to the Commission and 
say: look, we've got this problem, let's talk about it.  You didn't take it to 
the NFU and say we've got this problem let's talk about it.  You made an 
announcement,  you were overtaken by events.  You've had to react to events and 
it's too late now because the damage has been done.  
 
MAWHINNEY:                             Wrong.  What we did was we took that 
information immediately to the House of Commons and if we hadn't you would have 
chastised me in really rather unattractive terms this morning for not having 
done it and, words like 'cover up' would have flown gently from your lips.  
What we actually did was we got the evidence from the scientists and the 
medical people, we went to the House of Commons and we said: here are the 
facts.  We are now responding to those facts.  It is very interesting that as 
we sit here today there is general agreement that the safety issue has been 
addressed and has satisfactorily been addressed.  That was the issue that was 
originally brought to us.  
 
                                       What we now have is a market confidence 
problem not only in this country but across Europe.  And, as you mentioned Mr 
Blair this morning, let me mention Mr Blair.  What he said over the last ten 
days and what Miss Harman said I treat with contempt.  I have been a Member of 
Parliament for seventeen years and in all of that time I have never heard 
Opposition politicians behave so disgracefully, so put-at-risk the national 
interest because they thought that they might be able to grub a few votes from 
it.  
 
                                       There is a market confidence problem.  
Mr Blair helped to create it.  We're going to solve it and he will never, ever  
escape from the odium of the scaremongering that he and Miss Harman have done 
over the last ten days.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Brian Mawhinney, thank you very much.