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ON THE RECORD
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 31.3.96
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon. The Tories have
revealed their strategy for fighting the next Election. We'll be asking the
man in charge of the campaign - the Chairman of the Party - how he's going to
make it work. That's after the News read by Chris Lowe.
NEWS
HUMPHRYS: But first, the General Election. The
Tories are still disastrously behind in the opinion polls and there's not long
now for them to catch up. This weekend, the Chairman of the Party, Brian
Mawhinney, told us how they're going to do it - more or less. They're going to
tell us that we've scarcely ever had it better - and if we vote Tory it'll go
on getting better.
Well Mr Mawhinney is with me. Now,
we've learned something else about your strategy today, haven't we? This idea
of a television debate, a live television debate with Tony Blair. Is that
going to happen?
BRIAN MAWHINNEY MP: There you go, believing what you read in
the newspapers again John. I thought Mr Blair was pretty unpersuasive this
morning. He gets trounced by John Major twice a week in the House of Commons
on debates. As for the General Election, it may be more than a year away.
We'll develop our strategy and we'll let you know whenever it becomes imminent.
HUMPHRYS: Why don't you know yet?
MAWHINNEY: Because I'm addressing issues on a
weekly, monthly, Quarterly basis, in a plan that leads up to the General
Election. This Parliament's got more than a year to run. Now we'll have the
General Election whenever the Prime Minister says and we'll be ready for it,
but I'm not going to divert my attention to things which may or may not happen
in the future when I have real pressing issues to address today. But I think
Mr Blair would be pretty unenthusiastic.
HUMPHRYS: Well - come to that in a minute - but
there's a principle here, isn't there? Either this sort of thing is good for
democracy or it's not. You must have a view on that, don't you?
MAWHINNEY: I don't have a view that it's a
principle. What is very important is the democratic process and we probably
have the most open, democratic General Election process of - I would guess -
any country in the world and we certainly don't have that formalised
presidential type of election that the United States has and which, at least,
some of your colleagues would like to push us in the direction. This is
genuinely speculation: I heard Central Office officials were discounting this
as speculation. This is generally and specifically speculation but being
floated by one of your colleagues.
HUMPHRYS: But-As you say part of the democratic
process, this should, according to many people, be a part of the democratic
process. Now you say you haven't decided yet but you would have a view, would
you not as to whether or not this sort of thing is, or is not, a part of the
democratic process?
MAWHINNEY: Well anybody talking-you can make
anything part of the democratic process. You wanted to make it part of the
principle of democracy. What I'm telling you is that during a General
Election-
HUMPHRYS: I've not asked for your view on that.
What you believe it ought to be, that's what I'm asking you.
MAWHINNEY: General-general-Whether we have in a
General Election a debate between Mr Major and Mr Blair is something which we
may turn our minds to. Frankly, I'm really pretty satisfied with the way we
conduct General Elections in this country and I'm not sure that I identify the
democratic deficit to which you're making reference.
HUMPHRYS: Well, can I offer you a suggestion-
MAWHINNEY: Always.
HUMPHRYS: - thankyou - as to why you may not yet
have decided? And, that is that at the moment Mr Major is massively behind in
the polls - we can't, we can't dispute that. If we get closer to the Election
and if he is still massively behind in the polls, then he may well want one. If
the gap has narrowed he may not. Now, that's a pretty cynical approach,isn't
it?
MAWHINNEY: Well yes it is and I'm sorry that you
introduced it because I certainly don't introduce it and it isn't part of my
calculations. If we thought that a debate was appropriate we'd have a debate.
If we think it's not - and thus far, can I stress, we have not been attracted
to the idea of debates - then we won't have one. But the idea that-that a
General Election is somehow less democratic as a consequence is-is nonsense.
HUMPHRYS: But if that's not the reason, then what
other reason might there be for delaying a decision on this?
MAWHINNEY: It's not delaying a decision. It's not
even an issue that has come across my thought process or my desk.
HUMPHRYS: Oh but you've been asked about this many
times in the past. Mr Major has been asked about it. The invitation is there.
As you know, Tony Blair this morning accepted it with alacrity, as he put it -
so, it's there.
MAWHINNEY: No, it's not. What - for the sake of
accuracy - what he was responding to was a speculative story in one of the
national newspapers pooh-pooh'd by Central Office officials. And, having been
put in a position where he had to make a judgment one way or the other, he
decided to say: Yes he'd like one - in the face of being pushed around and
trampled under foot in the most gracious way by Mr Major twice a week in the
House of Commons. It is not an issue that has even come across my desk. So,
I'm not deferring a decision. I haven't even thought about it, John.
HUMPHRYS: Well you say you haven't thought about
it at all, which is a bit odd really since lots of people have been talking
about it for a long time.
MAWHINNEY: Well, maybe I have other things to think
about.
HUMPHRYS: Of course, of course and I understand,
accept that you're a very busy man. But here's Tony Blair having said firmly
and positively we would be very, very, very happy to do this. You're dithering
about it, you can't decide.
MAWHINNEY: Well, forgive me. Let me try just one
more time. It isn't a question of can't decide John. I haven't even thought
about it.
HUMPHRYS: So, won't decide.
MAWHINNEY: I haven't even thought about it because
we're talking about a General Election which may come over a year in the future
and-
HUMPHRYS: Alright, but I'm inviting you to think
about it now, you see. I mean, here we are, we've discussed it. You know the
issues - certainly as well as I do. Probably a lot better than I do - and
you've thought about it since at least this morning because it's in the papers
this morning and it's been reported this morning. Having thought about it, Mr
Chairman, what's your view?
MAWHINNEY: And, John, what sort of a Chairman do
you think I would be if on the back of a speculative piece in a national
newspaper - and incidentally, if I was to respond to every speculative piece in
national newspapers or on the media I would never get anything else done-
HUMPHRYS: Right.
MAWHINNEY: What sort of a Chairman do you think I
would be if on the back of a speculative piece in the national newspaper and a
question from the eminent John Humphrys, I was suddenly to make a fundamental
decision about the nature of the General Election? Uou'd hold me in pretty low
regard as a Chairman and rightly so. So I'm not going to do it John.
HUMPHRYS: So you haven't made a decision.
MAWHINNEY: I haven't thought about it John. You're
not going to-forgive me but I'm not going to allow you to paint me into a
corner as somebody who can't make up his mind. It has not thus far been an
issue John.
HUMPHRYS: Alright. So is it still open then?
MAWHINNEY: John, we will have a General Election,
we will conduct that in a way which will be open and democratic. We will draw
on the experience of previous General Elections in which we have not had the
sort of debate that you have in mind. And, whenever we are ready to reveal the
nature and the content of our General Election strategy, you'll be among the
first to know.
HUMPHRYS: I appreciate that. But as we speak you
haven't closed your mind to it? It is open?
MAWHINNEY: John, I haven't even thought about it.
HUMPHRYS: Alright, so much for the medium as it
were. What about the message? Now, you've been painting - you, Mr Major, Mr
Heseltine have been painting - a very glowing picture of life in Britain over
the last few days, at your Conference. That doesn't square with the experience
of many people. You're telling 'em in essence they've never had it so good, or
something vaguely akin to that message and a lot of people may feel they've
actually never had it so bad, or at least they're having it pretty bad at the
moment. So, your message isn't going to wash with them is it?
MAWHINNEY: Well not if your analysis is correct.
But fortunately your analysis isn't correct. What we have been saying-What I
said explicity at Harrogate was people are going to want to know where are the
jobs and the personal prosperity going to come from in the twenty-first
century, against the challenge of the Asian economies - about which Michael
Heseltine spoke so eloquently - in terms of the jobs that people want.
Now, the truth is that Unemployment has
been falling in this country steadily for the best part of two and a half years
and faster than in any of our major competitor countries in Europe. People's
real disposal income is going up and is going to go up considerably more in the
next financial year. We are creating more jobs than any other country in
Europe. We are attracting more investment than ever before in our history.
That's jobs and personal prosperity and local community prosperity. And, we're
attracting a disproportionate amount as far as the European Union is concerned,
into this country. And, our exports are going up all of the time, record level
after record level.
So, if people are interested in jobs and
increasing in personal prosperity, then, as I said at Harrogate, we will invite
people to look around them to see that some very tough and very unpopular
political decisions which we had to take coming out of the recession, which
were the right decisions. We said then that they were the right decisions,
they are now demonstrably the right decisions. And, we wil say to people,
against that, where jobs are being created, where unemployment is going down,
where personal prosperity is going up, ask yourself the question whether a
Labour Party that will have a Social Chapter and a Minimum Wage - both of which
independent experts say will increase Unemployment and reduce jobs - and a
deal conducted in secret with the trade unions - to allow all of that
centralised trade union dominated issues - is that going to enhance the
creation of jobs and personal prosperity or is it going to reduce it? I have
no doubt what their answer is.
HUMPHRYS: Well, I shan't even attempt to answer
myself that last question - it's not for me to do that. But you have painted
there a pretty rosy picture. Now let's contrast that with the real experience
of many people who are worried about security. You say you've created more
jobs but they're worried about longterm security. Old people are worried about
losing their homes if they fall ill and have to go into a nursing home; people
are worried about paying for their children's university education; negative
equity. There are all sorts of problems facing people today which may well say
to them: actually, I don't feel as if I've never had it so good and your danger
is that you may look rather out of touch. Isn't that the case?
MAWHINNEY: Well, first of all, the 'I've never had
it so good' phrase is yours. It's not mine.
HUMPHRYS: No, no. I didn't say you used that
phrase but the message you gave was quite clearly that putting aside...
MAWHINNEY: Life is better is the message that I-
HUMPHRYS: Life is better.
MAWHINNEY: I'm very happy to say that.
HUMPHRYS: Some people may say: actually, life
isn't better because I'm very worried now, in a way that, perhaps, I didn't
used to be.
MAWHINNEY: Let me try to remember the four issues
that you raised. The first was job security and yes of course, we have moved
from a circumstance where people got a job for life. But in a competitive
economy, in a worldwide competitive economy the best security is to be
competitive in the marketplace and that is increasingly what is happening in
this country. And, it requires a change of thought process as well, in as much
as life training, life education, is part of that job framework and we have
done so.
You said, secondly, about old people
being concerned. The Prime Minister, yesterday, announced that in a few weeks
time we'd be unveiling a White Paper, precisely because we recognise that there
is an issue about the care of very old people in nursing homes and residential
homes and that we want to offer them the assurance and the reassurance that
they should have and that they can expect from a Conservative government that
believes in wealth cascading down through the generations.
You asked about universities. The truth
is that if you look at the profile in this country and in other countries, the
number of young people going to university is rising and that there is no
differential, as I understand it. I have no reason to believe that there is
any differential that has disproportionately affected those on lower incomes
going to university. And, on negative equity, the best circumstance for people
who are in negative equity is a growing economy, with a housing market that is
starting to move and both of those are now in place.
Of course, I feel sorry for people who
are in negative equity but the growth of the economy and the movement of the
housing market, which again independent experts are saying is now taking place,
that's the best way to address that fundamental concern.
HUMPHRYS: You talk about the growth of the economy
- and you claim credit for that - in fact, the things that have happened to the
economy that have led to that growth have been in spite of what you set out to
do, rather than because of them.
MAWHINNEY: Oh, come on, John.
HUMPHRYS: Membership of ERM, central to your whole
economic policy. You were forced out of ERM, against your wishes.
MAWHINNEY: John, the single most important thing
about an economy that grows is a government that gets inflation down and keeps
inflation down and reassures people of its commitment to keep inflation down.
That creates the framework in which others - businesses, industry, small and
medium-sized businesses, in particular - can go out there into the marketplace,
can become competitive, can sell their goods, can offer a service, can employ
people. That's what happened.
HUMPHRYS: And it's happened because you were force
out and much of it has happened because you were forced out of ERM. Days
before being forced to leave the ERM, you were saying: this is the cornerstone
of our policy. Now, you were forced out of it and many of those things that
have happened happened because you were forced out of it. So, it wasn't down
to your positive actions...
MAWHINNEY: Forgive me, there's just a smidgen of
revisionism in that analysis. Certainly, we came out of ERM - that's not
revisionism.
HUMPHRYS: And had to - didn't want to.
MAWHINNEY: And other countries did as well and it
is worth remembering that that period in the ERM was because we were using that
as a mechanism to drive down inflation. We got to a point where we had to
develop other means and that is certainly right. But, it was also against a
background, John, where Government is now spending forty-two per cent of the
GDP and we are going down against a target of forty or less.
HUMPHRYS: But...
MAWHINNEY: Let me make the point. The average in
the other fourteen European countries - European Union countries -is fifty-two
per cent and rising. So, you said that we had no role to play. The fact is
that we have sought to position ourselves, in economic terms, in economic
framework terms, in a way which allows business and industry to go out and do
what they're good at and that's what's happening.
HUMPHRYS: Didn't Tony Blair put his finger on
what's really going to be your problem and that is the perception of the
Government as being competent or incompetent and he pointed out this morning
you will be seen as an incompetent government and we've had a classic example
of that in the last week or so and that is beef. You didn't consult with
people when you learned what was going on and as a result of that we're in the
mess that we're in today over it.
MAWHINNEY: That's nonsense, absolute nonsense. The
scientists came to us and they said: we have ten cases. We have ten cases
because we have new scientific techniques.
HUMPHRYS: And you didn't then take that evidence,
take that information to the European Union for instance, to the Commission and
say: look, we've got this problem, let's talk about it. You didn't take it to
the NFU and say we've got this problem let's talk about it. You made an
announcement, you were overtaken by events. You've had to react to events and
it's too late now because the damage has been done.
MAWHINNEY: Wrong. What we did was we took that
information immediately to the House of Commons and if we hadn't you would have
chastised me in really rather unattractive terms this morning for not having
done it and, words like 'cover up' would have flown gently from your lips.
What we actually did was we got the evidence from the scientists and the
medical people, we went to the House of Commons and we said: here are the
facts. We are now responding to those facts. It is very interesting that as
we sit here today there is general agreement that the safety issue has been
addressed and has satisfactorily been addressed. That was the issue that was
originally brought to us.
What we now have is a market confidence
problem not only in this country but across Europe. And, as you mentioned Mr
Blair this morning, let me mention Mr Blair. What he said over the last ten
days and what Miss Harman said I treat with contempt. I have been a Member of
Parliament for seventeen years and in all of that time I have never heard
Opposition politicians behave so disgracefully, so put-at-risk the national
interest because they thought that they might be able to grub a few votes from
it.
There is a market confidence problem.
Mr Blair helped to create it. We're going to solve it and he will never, ever
escape from the odium of the scaremongering that he and Miss Harman have done
over the last ten days.
HUMPHRYS: Brian Mawhinney, thank you very much.
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