................................................................................
ON THE RECORD
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 19.11.95
................................................................................
HUMPHRYS: This weekend the Irish Prime Minister
has been studying a letter from Mr Major which is intended to breathe new life
into the Northern Ireland peace process. It's stalled because Sinn Fein wants
all-Party talks to get going now, without any preconditions. They say they've
earned the right because the ceasefire has lasted so long. The British
Government says the talks will not happen until the IRA begins giving up some
of its weapons - a seemingly hopeless impasse. Martin McGuinness is one of the
most powerful figures in Sinn Fein and when I spoke to him this morning from
Londonderry, I asked him whether he was encouraged by Mr Major's new move.
MARTIN MCGUINNESS: Well, I have to say that in the course
of the recent months I have seen very little from Mr Major which would indicate
that he is trying to get the peace process moving. The reality is that all of
this is taking place against the background of a collapsing peace process. And,
what we need and what we have been telling everyone, in the course of recent
months, is the British Government to recognise that this process needs a
dynamic, and that dynamic must come from an actual date when All-Party peace
talks will begin.
HUMPHRYS: It could of course come from yourselves,
and that is to say: we will accept the so-called Washington Three condition;
and, we will suggest, we will strongly urge, the IRA to start talking about
getting rid of their weapons, so that we can get into All-Party talks.
MCGUINESS: Well what we've told the British
Government and what we have told everyone else is that we wish to be part of a
process which removes all the guns from Irish politics. It has become quite
clear to us in recent months that the British Government appear only interested
in removing the IRA guns from Irish politics and that is not good enough. And,
we believe that the goal of removing all the guns is a very noble goal indeed,
which the British Government should accept.
HUMPHRYS: Well, it may or may not be but you don't
have the support of Mr Bruton, of the Irish Prime Minister on that, it appears;
nor, apparently, Washington. So you're on your own, aren't you? You've got to
give on this.
MCGUINNESS: Well, I think, the reality is that the
British Government doesn't have the support of Washington or Mr Bruton. The
British Government needs to recognise that we have to be involved in a process
which is designed to remove all the guns from Irish politics. What is wrong
with that?
HUMPHRYS: Well, if you're asking me what's wrong
with that is that Washington and Dublin don't see an equivalence between
terrorist weapons - as they would describe them - and as the military's
weapons.
MCGUINNESS: Well, let's be realistic about this. Of
course, everybody involved in this process, with the exception of the British
Government and the Unionist political leadership, does wish to see the removal
of all of the guns from Irish politics. They also wish to see All-Party talks
begin. They wish to see a date when those talks will begin and in the course
of recent months the President of the United States himself has said that by
the time he arrives in Ireland he expected that All-Party discussions would
have been underway.
In reality, in the course of the next
two weeks, he will arrive here and All-Party talks will not have begun. And I
think that clearly in all of that there is a very serious message for the
British Government.
HUMPHRYS: But he knows and everybody else knows
that they could begin if a start could be made towards decommissioning the
weapons and that is down - not to the British Government, not to Washington,
not to Dublin - but to the IRA.
MCGUINNESS: Well, the fact is: it isn't down to the
IRA. The reality is that what we have witnessed in the course of events in
Ireland over the last fifteen months has all been about the decision of the IRA
to call a complete cessation. We were told for many, many years that there was
a circle of conflict in Ireland which could not be broken. In fact, the people
who broke that circle were the IRA and everything else that has resulted from
that has come from that IRA decision. So, what we need to do is focus
everybody on the need to get All-Party talks started. The British Government
have adopted, in my opinion, a very cynical approach to the international body,
that aspect of the twin track (PHON), by saying that they wish that body to
deal with Washington One and Two, process that for them and then hand the
result of that to themselves. And they, then, reserve the right to pop (phon)
up Washington Three so effectively down the road - block our movement into
All-Party talks. And, I think, that that is a very cynical approach which
needs to be removed.
HUMPHRYS: I'm not sure that people will quite
understand all the talk of Washingtons One, Two and Three but what we're
talking about basically is some sort of commission led by an American - George
Mitchell, perhaps - which would discuss how the decommissioning of arms is to
happen. Now, the question is: whether you would urge the IRA to co-operate
with this, so that All-Party talks could begin but that at the same time that
commission would talk/discuss how those arms are to be decommissioned. That's
what it's all about, isn't it? And, what it needs is for you to say and Sinn
Fein to say that's what we think should happen. Then, the logjam is broken.
MCGUINNESS: Well, you see (phon), in effect, what
the British Government are trying to do is have the international body deal
with the less problematic aspects of the issue of decommissioning and they wish
to retain for themselves the right to demand the actual decommissioning - or
surrender, as we call it - of IRA weapons before Sinn Fein gets into talks.
And, everybody knows, including the British Government, that there is no
possibility whatsoever of that happening. That all of these matters must be a
basis or an item on the agenda for All-Party peace talks, just as the proposal
which the Ulster Unionists have made for the establishment of a convention, at
an assembly at Stormont must be a matter for All-Party talks. At this point in
time, what we're saying is that the British Government are running quite
proactively on a Unionist agenda and giving succour to the proposals which have
been made by Mr Trimble. And, so, effectively, making sure that the whole
approach to the twin (phon) track is one which is loaded completely with
British Government and Unionist feelings (phon).
HUMPHRYS: People listening to this, I think, are
going to be genuinely puzzled, partly because it is a bit confusing. But,
also, because we're talking about the possible breakdown of a peace process and
what that means, in real terms, is that people will start to be killed again.
And yet, true democrats - if that's what we are talking about here - and you've
said that that is what you are - can't sit around a table and talk about
getting rid of those weapons. They will find this extraordinary. If you truly
believe in peace, you won't be concerned with what the particular motives of
any one Party is. At this stage, you will say: Right, we'll talk about getting
rid of those weapons and we'll talk about the rest of it as well and get it
sorted out.
MCGUINNESS: Well, we are prepared to do that.
HUMPHRYS: Not talk about getting rid of the
weapons you're not?
MCGUINNESS: Oh, absolutely. We are prepared to talk
about getting rid of all the weapons. The difficulty at this moment in time..
HUMPHRYS: But there has to be a gesture doesn't
there? There has to be...
MCGUINNESS: Well, with respect the difficulty at
this moment in time is the British Government are only interested in getting
rid of the IRA's weapons and this attitude, this approach to the international
body, has to be about getting rid of all the weapons. We have told the British
Government and we've told the Dublin Government, that Sinn Fein is prepared to
look at the twin track approach, that Sinn Fein is prepared to go to the
international body and make a submission on getting rid of all the weapons.
That has proved unacceptable to the British Government and I think it's very
important that people understand that.
HUMPHRYS: Isn't the reality that you have nowhere
else to go? I mean, you could argue that the other Parties have nowhere else
to go either. But, you have no support outside your own organisation. perhaps.
And, within the IRA, of course - for whom you may or may not speak - you have
nowhere else to go?
MCGUINNESS: Oh, I think, we have considerable
support. I think that what you are ignoring is the fact that over the course
of recent months, and for the greater part of the last fifteen months there is
an Irish consensus in place which is demanding the beginning of All-Party peace
talks. That consensus is being supported by the international community and I
believe also by the administration in the United States. The people who are
isolated here are the British Government and the Unionist political leadership.
And, when it's all boiled down, what they're in effect saying to all of us is
that they are not interested in real negotiations at this time.
HUMPHRYS: If the worst happens and if this does
all break down and if the IRA says we're going to start up again, would you, in
Sinn Fein, you Martin McGuinness, say to them: No, don't do that?
MCGUINNESS: Well, I sincerely hope it doesn't break
down.
HUMPHRYS: Of course, I understand that.
MCGUINNESS: And, I see my role in all of this as
doing everything in my power to ensure that it doesn't break down. And, over
the course of the last couple of years, myself, Gerry Adams and all of us
within Sinn Fein, have worked very, very hard to put in place a peace process
which would be viable and which would have as a central element the need for
All-Party discussions to take place. We're not going to let go of this
lightly.
HUMPHRYS: Right.
MCGUINNESS: But there is a responsibility on the
British Government and there is also a great responsibility on the political
leadership of Unionism to recognise now that well into the second year of an
IRA cessation that there is a demand in the international community and amongst
our people that all of the Parties go to the negotiating table.
HUMPHRYS: I take all that.
MCGUINNESS: Sinn Fein has been ready and willing to
do that for the past fifteen months.
HUMPHRYS: I take all that. I take all that but
you didn't answer my question. If, and you tell me it could break down - you
began this interview by talking about the danger of it all collapsing - if
that happens, will you say to the IRA: Do not start the killing again?
MCGUINNESS: Well, as I said, in the earlier answer,
my responsibility is to ensure that that doesn't happen.
HUMPHRYS: Yes, indeed, but you're not answering
the question, are you? If it happens - and you introduced the possibility that
the whole thing might collapse, you brought that up right at the beginning in
this interview-
MCGUINNESS: Yeah.
HUMPHRYS: If it collapses, will you say to the
IRA - it's a straightforward question - will you say to the IRA: don't go back
to the gun?
MCGUINNESS: I will say to the IRA that I believe the
IRA were involved in a very noble attempt to remove the gun from Irish politics
and at the same time we saw a British Government and a Unionist political
leadership rebuff the efforts of the IRA. Don't forget the most dynamic force-
HUMPHRYS: And, therefore, it's okay to pick up the
gun again?
MCGUINNESS: But the most dynamic force in all of
this: this entire peace process was a decision by the IRA to call a complete
cessation of military operations.
HUMPHRYS: Right. But, you're not answering the
question though are you, Mr McGuinness?
MCGUINNESS: Well, the question-The question is
dealing with an issue which is hypothetical.
HUMPHRYS: No, because you raised it right at the
beginning of the interview.
MCGUINNESS: No, I didn't raise it at the
beginning. What I said- No.
HUMPHRYS: You said-You said that talks may
collapse.
MCGUINNESS: With respect John, there is a
difference between the peace process collapsing and an outbreak of conflict in
this country.
HUMPHRYS: Ah!
MCGUINNESS: What I am talking about is the reality
that we have had for some considerable time: a peace process which gave hope
and optimism to many people in this country which has now effectively been
destroyed by the attitude of the British Government. There is a big difference
between that.
HUMPHRYS: Right. Let me read you what Gerry
Adams said if the talks break down, if the peace process breaks down rather we
will have and I quote you "assert the supremacy of our strategy which is a
peace strategy". So, in other words, are you saying that even if this peace
process breaks down, as far as you understand it, the IRA will continue to
observe the ceasefire?
MCGUINNESS: I don't know what the IRA will do if
the peace process breaks down.
HUMPHRYS: I know you don't know but what is your
view on this?
MCGUINNESS: What I can say is reiterate the message
which you quoted from Gerry Adams: Sinn Fein has a peace strategy. We have
been working at it for some considerable years. We will continue to have a
peace strategy even if the peace process breaks down. What the IRA does is a
matter for the IRA. I am a representative of Sinn Fein. I am telling you what
Sinn Fein will do. Indeed, we will continue to do to persevere, to attempt to
get all the Parties to come to the negotiating table but we can't do this on
our own.
HUMPHRYS: And that is the message you'll deliver
to the IRA: We will continue to do this on our own, even if it breaks down.
MCGUINNESS: What I am saying is that Sinn Fein's
message to everyone, not just to the IRA, is that Sinn Fein has a peace
strategy which we will continue to persevere with, even if the peace process
collapses completely, which it is in the process of doing at the moment unless
we see a new attitude, a new approach from the British Government.
|