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ON THE RECORD
ALEX SALMOND INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 10.3.96
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Well, Alex Salmond: I am a Scot, I
believe in devolution. I do not believe in independence. Who do I vote for?
ALEX SALMOND MP: Well I think people should vote SNP for
independence but also I think people should vote SNP for political progress in
Scotland. But, can I just say that you seem to be working on a misapprehension
that actually more people in Scotland at the present moment who believe in
independence now are yet voting for the SNP. I mean the SNP vote is certainly
increasing but not as fast as the support for independence. So, one of our
targets is to maximise that independence vote when polls are showing up to
forty per cent. People in Scotland now believe in independence and that's a
very strong position for the SNP to be in.
HUMPHRYS: Well that's as may be but the fact
remains that here am I a Scot who wants devolution. I want the union to
persist though. Now Labour have said to me: Vote for us and we will give you
devolution and the union remains. So, therefore, surely I should vote Labour?
SALMOND: Yes, but what the polls are also showing
is a majority of people in Scotland believe that devolution would lead to
independence. Now I want to get to independence as quickly as possible and
I'll be going into the next Election trying to win that election on an
independence platform. But I'm pragmatic enough to say that if people in
Scotland vote for something else and an assembly is established - and the only
way an assembly will be established, if Labour are frightened by the SNP - then
people in that context should also be given the opportunity to vote for
independence. Now the logic in that argument is very very strong indeed. Now,
I mean I know these films are meant to dramatise things, but we actually had
this debate in the SNP last year - this time last year. That strategy of the
primacy of the independence campaign by responding pragmatically to political
developments was carried by two hundred votes to two at our National Council.
Now, you've managed to interview the two.
HUMPHRYS: Well, if that had been you wouldn't stil
be Leader, would you? But anyway, I'm still puzzled. These films actually are
meant to clarify rather than dramatise and I think it helped do that and it's
left me now a little bit puzzled as to what you are saying. You're now saying
to me if you want devolution, vote SNP. But, what we will give you - because
that's your aim - is independence. So in other words I'll be voting against
the union won't I?
SALMOND: Let me try again, shall I? The SNP is a
primacy of the independence campaign. That is our target, that's our aim and
ambition and we want to maximise the independence vote. What we're saying is
that we'll campaign for independence, we'll seek a mandate for independence at
the General Election. We're also saying we'll respond pragmatically to any
political development in Scotland. Many people would argue that the best
opportunity for getting that mandate for independence - Scotland will only
become independent when the majority of people vote for it - might well be in
the Scottish political context, in assembly elections. Now I think we can get
there quicker but I will always respond dramatically to improve and enhance the
Scottish case. Now that seems to a logical argument. It's not complicated, I
think it's impregnable.
HUMPHRYS: It confuses me and indeed some of your
own supporters.
SALMOND: Well, you came into the interview
wanting to be confused by it. I don't think it's confusing people in Scotland.
HUMPHRYS: No. Well that isn't what that film
suggested but let's try again. What you're saying to me is - and keep in mind
that I do want devolution, I want that to Parliament and all the rest of it -
but I do not want independence. I'm dead set against breaking up the union.
So, what I'm saying to you is: I vote for you. The trouble is you will then
use my vote to justify independence.
SALMOND: Yes. The SNP will go into the Election
seeking a mandate for Scottish independence.
HUMPHRYS: Precisely.
SALMOND: That's our objective and everybody's
going to know that. It will also respond pragmatically to any political
development in Scotland. Can I just say to you that the only mechanism for
delivering independence is for people to vote for the SNP by a majority. We
even say in the SNP - just to make sure there's no doubt about this - that
we'll hold a referendum on the Constitutional package after negotiations on
independence. There's no backdoor route to independence. People can only get
Scottish independence when they vote for it by majority. Impeccably democratic
and very simple, John.
HUMPHRYS: So, if it's that simple, the message is
prefectly clear: if all I want is devolution and I do not want independence, I
should vote for the Labour Party, shouldn't I? Because the Labour Party have
told me that's what they'll give me.
SALMOND: Yes, but I think a lot of people in
Scotland don't trust the Labour Party to deliver. I mean I've been watching
your programme as a good politician must over the last year and I've seen-
HUMPHRYS: I have no objection on that, at all.
SALMOND: Well, I've seen reports from Wales.
I've seen reports from people like John McWilliam in the North East of England.
I think it would be incredible. If the history we've had in Scotland-If
anybody trusted the Labour Party to deliver its devolution commitment. I mean
afterall the first time Labour committed themselves to a Parliament for
Scotland was I think 1888 and when Keir Hardie did it in the Mid Lanark
by-election. He said a Scottish Parliament was just round the corner. Now a
hundred years later we're still waiting. So I think there's a lot of
scepticism, not just in Wales and the North East of England, but also in
Scotland about the seriousness of Labour's devolution commitment. They've been
dragged here, trying to head off support for the SNP and I think people in
Scotland are quite.....Are the Labour Party serious about this? Will they
deliver? And, I think the only way to make sure they deliver anything is the
size and strength of the SNP vote.
HUMPHRYS: So, not withstanding that there is this
rock solid commitment from the Labour Party - and it couldn't be firmer, one of
the few things some people would say on which it is absolutely firm, not
withstanding that - what you are saying to me is, as somebody who wants only
devolution and not independence, is trust me with your vote. Even though you
are absolutely committed, rock solid commitment to indepedence.
SALMOND: But, John, you've interviewed people
from Wales and the Labour Party, who are deeply unhappy about a devolution
commitment. You've interviewed people on this programme from the NorthEast of
England who say that they'll roadblock devolution. They'll have a referendum
or argue for that or they'll be conditional in their support for it. Now given
that you've actually had these people interviewed on this programme, it's
hardly surprising that many of us in Scotland are sceptical about the
seriousness of the Labour Leadership's intention. Of course there are many
people in the Labour Party who believe genuinely in the devolution commitment.
There are many people in the Labour Party who want to go rather further. But
the Labour Leadership do not have a good track record in delivering their
commitments for Scotland. So, you will excuse us if we're rather sceptical
about...
HUMPHRYS: But the difference is I'm not
interviewing them at the moment, I'm interviewing you-
SALMOND: ...... right.
HUMPHRYS: -and what you are doing, I fear is
confusing me considerably because you seem to be making one promise to one
section of the electorate and one promise to another section of the
electorate. To one you're saying we'll give you the independence that you
want and that you vote for. That's absolutely fine. To the other lot you're
saying I know you don't want independence, I know you want devolution. So, to
keep the Labour Party honest - at least I think that's what saying - you also
ought to vote for us. But you of course - and this is the beauty of it, or the
weakness of it - you have no way of knowing whether when I cast my vote for
you, I am voting for independence or merely for devolution.
SALMOND: Yes, but not the only political
information we have available to us in Scotland, we know from a series of
opinion polls that the support for independence is very large and it's been
growing.
HUMPHRYS: Well on that basis, we needn't have
Elections at all. We'll just have opinion polls.
SALMOND: Well, that is a factor we have to bear
in mind. I mean, there's lots of evidence - well, twenty years ago, when the
SNP were last challenging seriously, the support for independence was about
fifteen per cent of the electorate. Now, the support for independence is
between thirty-five and forty per cent. You know, we've been successful in
enlarging the independence constituency. It's not a majority yet but it's
moving in that direction. Where we've been less successful is actually putting
chalk on the board and winning the seats and progressing our political aims.
Now, the film suggested that I'm going
to radically change the SNP strategy on independence from the last Election.
That simply isn't true. The good thing about our strategy in the last Election
was the way we argued for independence, the primacy of the independence
campaign. The failure in our strategy in the last Election is we managed to
increase our own vote by fifty per cent but only gained three Parliamentary
seats. Now, what I'd like to do is both enlarge and increase the vote, the
independence constituency and also gain Parliamentary seats as well.
Now, you'll excuse me if I try to
achieve these things in the next General Election campaign.
HUMPHRYS: You're trying to achieve it by a fairly
cynical manoeuvre, really, aren't you? You're offering different things to
different bits of the Constituency?
SALMOND: Not at all. The SNP is, clearly,
associated as the independence Party of Scotland. That's one of the things
that people know about the SNP and always will. We'll argue and articulate
that case in a way that we think advances that cause and that Constituency.
It's an exciting project to be part of the creation of a new country, a new
political system - Scotland within Europe. Now, this is an exciting idea.
It's one of the few big ideas that's going to be presented to the Electorate.
But what's-I'll give the viewers the
benefit of asking some questions about the project that we're-
HUMPHRYS: Always prepared to do that.
But, this exciting project - this
independence. Is devolution bound to lead to independence?
SALMOND: No, it's not bound to lead to
independence because independence can only be achieved when the Scottish people
vote for it. But, I think, it will do because it puts in a Scottish political
context, I think, there's arguments why the people are more likely to vote for
independence in the context of a devolved assembly. But, obviously, I'm going
to an Election - the next Election - and trying to win that Election for
Scotland. I think, the Labour Party for all their apparent lead in the opinion
polls are very vulnerable. I think-
HUMPHRYS: Well, about forty per cent is pretty
real, isn't it?
SALMOND: Not in Scotland it's not, John.
HUMPHRYS: Oh, well, how about the Tories?
SALMOND: Yes, but not over us - that's the point.
They're looking over their shoulders very nervously indeed. When Tony Blair
came to Scotland on Friday and told the Labour Party to expect cuts - when
we're all fighting against cuts in Scotland - the Labour Party conference in
Scotland rejected the Trident commitment - you know the one spending commitment
that Tony Blair's willing to make to Scotland, to spend it on Trident
missiles.
So, I think, the Labour Party have got
good reason to fear us at the coming Election.
Well, your point was: well, could
devolution inevitably lead to independence? No. Only if the Scottish people
choose it.
Do I think it's a perfectly valid way to
get to independence? The answer is: yes.
HUMPHRYS: OK, so, we've had the Election. And,
let's assume - and, it's reasonable to make this assumption - on the basis of
the print viewers because you seem to believe in opinion polls - you were
telling me earlier how much they meant for your Party - you .... as far as the
Labour Party is concerned, can you?....(talking together) .....alright,
alright. We-we've had the Election and Labour's won it. Labour introduces a
Scottish Devolution Bill. Now, assuming that it contains what we are told, at
the moment, that it will contain, would you vote for it?
SALMOND: Well, the history of the SNP is that
we've tended to vote for things that we think will advance the Scottish
interest. I mean, obviously, I'm not giving it carte blanche because I haven't
seen the Bill.
HUMPHRYS: But, I've said 'assuming' it contains
what we now believe it to contain.
SALMOND: Well, yes.
HUMPHRYS: We know what is meant to be in it.
SALMOND: Well, I'd still like to see the Bill
because there's a potential for blocking mechanisms, for referendums, for forty
per cent rules. We've been down this route before in Scotland and we're-
HUMPHRYS: No, no, no. But, that's not at the
moment though, is it? We know what's in it, at the moment.
SALMOND: Yes.
HUMPHRYS: And, what I'm asking you is-
SALMOND: And, we also know that the history of
this measure has been and I'm saying I'm not giving a carte blanche commitment
until I see the legislation.
HUMPHRYS: Alright.
SALMOND: And, seriously, you wouldn't expect me
to -
HUMPHRYS: Oh-
SALMOND: -give such a commitment.
HUMPHRYS: Oh, I think, I would because you're
asking people-
SALMOND: -before I have seen it.
HUMPHRYS: -who believe in devolution to vote for
you.
SALMOND: What I'm also saying is the history of
this subject would tell you that the SNP would tend to vote for any measure
that would advance the Scottish interest.
HUMPHRYS: Right.
SALMOND: In fact, look at the last Parliament.
I, actually, voted for more Bills for assemblies than the Labour Party did
because I voted for both theirs and I also voted for the Liberal ones, as well,
which, at that stage, they weren't prepared to -
HUMPHRYS: And, there's not question from what
you've said that the sort of Devolution Bill we believe would come about would
advance the Scottish interest, is there? That's perfectly clear.
SALMOND: I think-
HUMPHRYS: Better than the status quo.
SALMOND: I mean, the Devolution Bill, proposed by
Labour, is a very weak thing, indeed.
HUMPHRYS: But, better than what we've got, at the
moment.
SALMOND: Oh, yes. I think, it's a-
HUMPHRYS: So, would earn Scotland's interest.
SALMOND: A poor second best and would advance the
Scottish interest.
HUMPHRYS: So, therefore, you would support it.
SALMOND: Yeah, assuming that there's no
roadblocks or there's some Constitutional obstruction. I think, that's a
reasonable assumption to make from history - yes.
HUMPHRYS: Right and would you, then, take part in
the Elections that would follow that for the new Parliament, or might you have
done that, perhaps?
SALMOND: If I may say so, that would be the whole
point because that would be another platform to advance the independence case.
Now our strategy, just to repeat, is the primacy of the independence campaign
seeking to win the next General Election in Scotland, for Scotland but also to
respond pragmatically to political developments and that would include standing
candidates on an independence platform for these assembly elections.
HUMPHRYS: Right, so that election, the election
for the new Scottish Parliament would in effect be a referendum as far as you
are concerned, a referendum for independence?
SALMOND: Yes, I think it could be interpreted
that way because we will be putting independence at the forefront of our
campaign, yes.
HUMPHRYS: And if you do take part it's reasonable
to assume that you will take up your seats in this new assembly, in this new
Parliament.
SALMOND: Well I'll be hoping under these
circumstances to be negotiating an independence settlement from the Westminster
Government. Now, it's not just me who thinks the SNP would do extremely wellin
these circumstances, remember this under the hypothesis that you are laying out
for me, this is mid-term in a Labour Government, we've got to assume that under
these terms, Labour might be very unpopular and I suspect the SNP would be
ridding even higher than we are at the present moment, so we'd have every
prospect of winning these elections.
HUMPHRYS: And if you won the election, then you
would say, right, that is it, that's the mandate for independence.
SALMOND: Yes, I mean, we'd negotiate
independence.....one of the most bitter Unionists opponents has said his belief
is that Scotland as devolution it will be independent by two thousand and two,
mind you the Shadow Scottish Secretary says if Scotland doesn't have devolution
there'd be independence double quick. There does seem to be a lot of agreement
that independence is very much on the agenda of Scottish politics.
HUMPHRYS: So let's take the other scenario then
and some might say the more realistic one, that Labour wins...it's going to be
based on proportional representation, as we know the election is for this new
parliament, Labour wins about the number of seats the polls at the moment tell
us they would, you win about the number of seats the polls tell us that
..suggest that they would at the moment. How, with whom are you going to work
in that assembly.
SALMOND: John, can I just say to you, I mean
you've invited me to concede the next election and for the benefit of the
programme I've done this, now you are inviting me to concede a second election,
that we wouldn't win the assembly elections either.....
HUMPHRYS: It's the lead story in the opinion polls
you see, that's how.....
SALMOND: What most are saying that a lot of
people in Scotland believe that under these circumstances the SNP would be best
placed to win, not just in the SNP, but in the Labour Party itself. Let's just
say, I know the way you are inviting me to go so let's just say we're in the
prospect that the SNP have done extremely well, but not the mandate to
negotiate independence. Now my view is under these circumstances, there'll
likely be a realignment of Scottish politics around the national question,
there's no secret that there are people in the Labour Party, the Liberal Party,
there are even people in the Conservative Party who are prepared to say under
these circumstances they think the best route for Scotland would be an
independent nation. Now, why would that be, because politicians do like to
decide on things like removing Trident from the River Clyde, restoring benefits
to sixteen and seventeen year olds in Scotland, having access to Scottish oil
and gas resources, to negotiating Scotland's position in the European Council
of Ministers in the European Community. These are important issues in
Scotland, none of them are provided for in Labour's Assembly Bill, all of them
can be achieved by Scottish independence. Now in that context, I think there
will be gravitation towards the independence position and it will come from
beyond the ranks of the Scottish National Party.
HUMPHRYS: In other words you would expect, you
talk about a realignment, that means the Labour Party would break up in
Scotland.
SALMOND: Oh I think there are elements in the
Labour Party who are basically supportive of the independence position but they
are imprisoned within the British political structure of the present moment,
I've believed that for many years. The opinion polls tell us and I put some
store by them, not a great store, but some store I put by them, up to forty per
cent of Labour supporters in Scotland actually believe in independence.
HUMPHRYS: But you know, as a matter of fact, do
you, that some MPs would leave the Labour Party, you know that would happen.
SALMOND: I believe in the circumstances, which
I've outlined, that's the SNP doing extremely well, but failing perhaps to get
an absolute majority in a proportional system, then I think there will be a
realignment of Scottish politics around the national question.
HUMPHRYS: But that's just a kind of vague belief
is it. I asked you whether you knew anybody....
SALMOND: Let me give you some evidence. I mean
I've already said up to forty per cent of Labour supporters in Scotland are
supporters of independence according to polls. There have been people who have
argued under these circumstances that they would want to move further and
faster, but from the Labour Party's own conference this weekend, we saw deep
unhappiness about the commitment to Trident submarines, we saw the work fair
plans have of Gordon Brown rejected by the Labour Conference. The important
point is John, under Labour's assembly scheme none of these things would be in
the provence of the assembly. It would be natural for a politician to say:
look we're the representative of Scottish democracy, therefore we should have
the power, that power can only come with independence.
HUMPHRYS: It might be natural but we haven't seen
it happen. We've seen members of the Conservative Party leaving to join
Labour or the Liberal Democrats or whatever, we haven't seen any of these
Labour members up in Scotland leaving to join you.
SALMOND: In the last Parliament of course, a
Labour MP defected to the Scottish National Party John, it would be difficult
wouldn't it for somebody in the Tory Party in Devon to defect to the SNP,
that's not one of our great expectations.
HUMPHRYS: We don't have very long left. Aren't
your activists right, your fundamentalists right, this whole devolution route
is a terrible trap for you.
SALMOND: Well the SNP position is vindicated by
our electoral success over the last few years, we haven't just been successful
in Renfrew, we took forty-five per cent of the vote Lithgow, in Livingston, in
Kilmarnock in the local elections, no wonder Labour are nervous because
the trend in Scottish politics is towards both the SNP and towards Scottish
independence.
HUMPHRYS: Alex Salmond, thank you very much.
SALMOND: Thank you.
...oooOooo...
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