Interview with Dick Spring




       
       
       
 
 
 
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                                 ON THE RECORD 
 
                             DICK SPRING INTERVIEW
                                                         
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1                                 DATE:   9.6.96
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JOHN HUMPHRYS:                         Dick Spring, twenty-five hours to go to 
the start of the talks, as we speak, and still no ceasefire.  Do you believe 
there's hope yet? 
 
DICK SPRING:                           Well, I believe that the option is 
there.  I believe that there are compelling reasons why a ceasefire should be 
reinstated.  It does look unlikely at this stage, but one should never give up 
hope in these-these situations. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But it's still not to late is it, from 
your point of view if the ceasefire were to be called at - I don't know - at 
five seconds to two tomorrow? 
 
SPRING:                                Well, we would prefer it, obviously, it 
was called before that, but I do think if the ceasefire is reinstated before 
the opening of the talks, that we should make every provision for Sinn Fein to 
be at the table tomorrow afternoon. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So that if it were five to two - I know 
that's stretching it a bit - but if it were five to two, you'd say let's open 
the door to them? 
 
SPRING:                                Well, yes I would.  I believe we've 
spent many years trying to bring about talks which have all the Parties in 
Northern Ireland involved so that there'd be inclusive talks.  And if there is 
a cessation of violence both Governments have made it clear that we would have 
Sinn Fein at the table. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, Mr Ancram didn't quite make that 
clear in this programme a few minutes ago.  He suggested that there would have 
to be some sort of process of verification before you'd accept the ceasefire. 
 
SPRING:                                Well, I have-I don't like commenting on 
remarks I haven't heard made but what I would say is that I believe very 
strongly that it's the position of our government that if a cessation of 
violence is restored, that we should provide the opportunities for Sinn Fein to 
be at the table, and that of course is coupled with a statement from Mr Adams 
some weeks ago that Sinn Fein would sign up to the six Mitchell Principles 
without any problems. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Right.  So all they would have to do is 
say-is for Sinn Fein to say-for the IRA to say the ceasefire is back, for Sinn 
Fein to say:We sign up to the Mitchell Principles, and you say:You can sit at 
the table? 
 
SPRING:                                I believe that that would be sufficient, 
and it would give us the momentum that we need to start and launch the 
all-Party talks, with all of the Parties at the table including Sinn Fein.
 
HUMPHRYS:                              However, if they don't do what we have 
just said, if there is no ceasefire between now and two o'clock tomorrow the 
talks should go ahead without Sinn Fein.  And, you have said they should do 
that, because no Party can have a veto on progress.  But isn't the reality that 
there can be no progress without Sinn Fein there? 
 
SPRING:                                No, I don't accept that.  My preference 
of course is that Sinn Fein would be there.  If there is no ceasefire declared 
before tomorrow at two o'clock then the obvious will happen, they will not be 
there.  But notwithstanding that, there is a great deal of work that can be 
done between the SDLP representing the Nationalist population and the Unionist 
Parties, and I believe we should set down to do that, starting at two o'clock 
tomorrow afternoon. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You Special Advisor, Fergus Finlay,has 
said that without Sinn Fein the talks aren't worth a penny candle.   
 
SPRING:                                Ultimately we need Sinn Fein at the 
table if we're going to solve the overall problem, including the 
decommissioning of weapons, and that's a fact of life.  But, I also believe 
very strongly that we need to get momentum, we need to establish trust and 
confidence between the Constitutional Parties as they're presently defined. 
And, we should start that on the- Monday afternoon as it's now scheduled. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But the principal objective of these 
talks - and we've said it over and over again - is to bring about a lasting 
peace.  How can you do that without Sinn Fein?.    
 
SPRING:                                Well we have, as I said John, there's a 
lot of trust and confidence and work to be done between the Constitutional 
Parties, between the Parties that will be represented there tomorrow.  I 
believe we should establish momentum, and we should start on that work as we 
have now proposed to do.   Hopefully, Sinn Fein can join with us, and if 
they're not there tomorrow I would hope that within a reasonably short of 
period of time that they can make the decisions that are necessary and be at 
the table representing their mandate. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              And the minute they say: ceasefire, you 
say: Come along.  So if they were to say that on Tuesday, if they were to say 
that on Tuesday week, you would say:Okay, come along? 
 
SPRING:                                Certainly.  What we-The Governments have 
made it very clear over the last number of months that we're looking for a 
reinstatement of the ceasefire, and without any further preconditions or 
inhibitions then I believe Sinn Fein should be at the table. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You're not are you, beginning to run out 
of patience a little with Sinn Fein? 
 
SPRING:                                No, I'm not.  We have put a great deal 
of work into this process since the Government was originally formed back in 
1993, a great deal of work, a great deal of effort and a great deal of energy 
from all involved, and I think that what we need to do now is have the
determination between the two Governments and the Parties who are at the talks 
to see this through.   It is the best opportunity we've had in the last 
twenty-five years to bring about a settlement in Northern Ireland, and I think 
we should leave no stone unturned to achieve that. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But it's precisely because you've put in 
all that effort that I ask the question, and suggest that perhaps you're 
getting a bit frustrated now?
 
SPRING:                                No John, I'm not getting frustrated, I 
have to say to you, because we all knew from the start that this would be a 
long process.  And, even starting tomorrow afternoon at the next phase it's 
going to take a considerable period of time before we bring about the agreement 
between the Parties in Northern Ireland. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You have, as you say, done a great deal 
to try to bring Sinn Fein into the process.  In the course of that, though, you 
have alienated the Unionists.  Does that worry you? 
 
SPRING:                                It..I Certainly, if I felt we had 
alienated the Unionists it would worry me because we've spent a great deal of 
time trying to open up discussion and dialogue with the Unionist Parties.  It 
hasn't been as successful as we would have wished but I would hope that 
starting from tomorrow afternoon that we have the opportunity of building a 
relationship between the Unionist representatives and the Government of the 
Republic of Ireland.  There is no reason in my opinion why that shouldn't 
happen.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But, you already have a problem here  
don't you, because David Trimble and Mr Taylor of the Ulster Unionists are 
saying: basically, we don't like Mitchell - we don't want him chairing the 
talks? 
 
SPRING:                                Well, I have difficulty understanding 
why anybody - anybody who wants to see progress made in Northern Ireland 
objecting to George Mitchell.  George Mitchell has shown his capacity, his 
impartiality and his independence in the report he and his colleagues did on 
the decommissioning question.  And, as many of the newspapers are saying today, 
he came through that enhancing his reputation, whereas most people would have 
failed.  And I honestly and genuinely believe that over the next number of 
months, George Mitchell will show his capacity and prove to people who doubt 
him that he has the independence that is necessary to make a very substantial 
contribution to our talks.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, he hasn't proved it yet, has he?  
Mr Taylor said, I think, just this morning, that he hasn't proved that he is 
starting from an independent position.  They regard him as an Irish-American, 
who's Party-pre. 
 
SPRING:                                George Mitchell is an Irish-American.  I 
think, that's a fact of life but I don't see why anybody should object to that. 
We have been tremendously assisted - I say 'we', both Governments - and the 
Parties in Northern Ireland by the resources that have been made available to 
us from Washington over the last number of years.  And, Washington, led by 
President Clinton, has lent out a hand of friendship to both the Nationalist 
and the Unionist communities in a very evenhanded way.  And I'm sure that 
George Mitchell will do the same to both communities and that will be shown 
very clearly over the next couple of weeks.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, perhaps it will and perhaps it 
won't.  If during the talks tomorrow, or indeed even the next few days, David 
Trimble and his colleagues say: no we will not accept Senator Mitchell, as the 
Chairman of the plenaries, what then happens as far as you're concerned? 
 
SPRING:                                John, we're into a hypothetical 
situation here. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, not very hypothetical, is it? 
 
SPRING:                                Well we are to an extent.  Now, we 
should be going there tomorrow at two o'clock, bringing with us leadership, 
goodwill and determination to make these talks successful.  And I will be 
saying that in my contributions when I get to speak at the opening of talks.  
We should all be setting out in a determined fashion, to work with the 
resources that are available, including what the resources of the two 
governments and, of course, the resources from the United States.  And, George 
Mitchell, as I said, is coming here as an independent man, with a very high 
track record and a very good record of work and experience in international 
politics and he should be accepted on that basis.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But as far as you're concerned, what's 
the technical position?  If the Unionists say: We've heard what the Senator has 
to say, we don't want him.  Can they say..can they demand somebody else to 
chair the talks?   
 
SPRING:                                I think, that given it's taken us almost 
four years to get to this stage, I think, that that would be very unwise and a 
retrograde step.  And, I would certainly hope and I would be quite optimistic 
that over the next number of days that George Mitchell can show these people 
that he has the capacity to carry out his functions.  And, I understand that 
some positive noises have been emerging from the Unionist Parties that met him 
in the course of yesterday afternoon and I hope that will see us through 
tomorrow as well.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, not very positive noises this 
morning, as I say and I take your point that it might be unwise.  But, do they 
have the power to say: we don't want the Senator? 
 
SPRING:                                No.  Both Governments have put forward 
the formulation, the scenario for the opening of talks - that's very clear, 
that's very fixed and I have to say to you that I would be confident that that 
would see us through tomorrow.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Do you agree that the real talks, the 
substantive talks will not begin until there has been some agreement on 
decommissioning weapons.  And, in that case, again, if you agree with that, you 
can't go anywhere without Sinn Fein, can you? 
 
SPRING:                                Well, we have set out and we've all 
accepted as far as I'm concerned - the British Government and the Irish 
Government have accepted very clearly - the Mitchell Report.  I have always 
regretted the fact that when Mitchell was published, back in February, that it 
should have been put on the table straight away, the Parties should have been 
brought in, and we should have set about getting there signing up, so to 
speak and their agreement on the Mitchell Report.  I believe the Mitchell 
Report will see us through these talks.  We have a very clear formulation in
paragraphs Thirty-Four and Thirty-Five of the Report, in relation to dealing 
with decommissioning - and if we stick to what Mitchell has proposed, then I 
believe we can deal with political progress and we can deal with progress on 
decommissioning and there's no reason why we shouldn't be able to do that.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              It's very hard to see how you can get 
anywhere on decommissioning if one of the Parties that holds most of the 
weapons is not at those talks?  
 
SPRING:                                John, that's a fact.  I mean, I accept 
that and we want that Party at the talks and I would be hopeful that if they're 
not there tomorrow we can get them in the very near future.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              The impression one has is that you are 
much more concerned at the absence of Sinn Fein than is the British Government 
- the potential absence of Sinn Fein I should say I suppose. 
 
SPRING:                                Well I don't know what leads you to that 
conclusion.  I mean we all want all of the parties, we want the Loyalists, the 
small Loyalist Parties at the table, they're going to be at the table but they 
obviously will not deal with the decommissioning issue when there's nobody 
there to deal with reciprocal decommissioning on the Nationalist Republican 
side.  So we need all the parties there to have the ultimate solution, the 
ultimate conclusions for an agreement but not withstanding the absence of Sinn 
Fein tomorrow there is no reason why we can't start the work of reconciliation 
between the Nationalist and Unionist populations in Northern Ireland.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You have appealed to Sinn Fein even at 
the late hour and I assume you are still appealing to them even at this late 
hour to come along to the talks.  Is there anything else you and perhaps the 
British Government as well, can do to encourage them? 
 
SPRING:                                I do not believe that there is anything 
else that can be offered.  We have carried out our work and the agreement we 
reached in London back on Thursday and the formulation that we have offered I 
believe is the best that can be achieved between the two governments.  I also 
believe, very firmly, that it has everything that Sinn Fein should be looking 
for in terms of being at the talks on Monday or whenever they can make their 
own internal decision to do so. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So your message to Sinn Fein this 
morning is? 
 
SPRING:                                The message is that it's time to make 
the decision, it's time to be at the table, they've wanted to be at All Party 
talks, we have created the talks and the atmosphere for talks.  Now it's time 
to get to the table.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You've said that the talks..there are 
serious problems.  Do you believe at this stage that what your Prime Minister 
Mr Bruton told us in February was true, that is that holding the elections 
prior to these talks would jeopardise the whole process, pour petrol on the 
flames as he put it? 
SPRING:                                The elections have come and gone without 
any great difficulty.  The elections have polarised Northern Ireland which was 
one of the worries that we had as the Taoiseach expressed at that time. They 
haven't told us anything new, other than perhaps the fact that Sinn Fein have 
increased their support on the basis that they want to get into a peace 
process, want to get into negotiations and that in itself is probably a good 
thing.  But there is nothing particularly new that has emerged from the 
elections.  We are now going into talks and we could have perhaps gone into 
those talks without the elections which were not of any great consequence. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Dick Spring, thanks very much for 
joining us. 
 
SPRING:                                Thank you. 
 
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