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ON THE RECORD
DICK SPRING INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 9.6.96
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Dick Spring, twenty-five hours to go to
the start of the talks, as we speak, and still no ceasefire. Do you believe
there's hope yet?
DICK SPRING: Well, I believe that the option is
there. I believe that there are compelling reasons why a ceasefire should be
reinstated. It does look unlikely at this stage, but one should never give up
hope in these-these situations.
HUMPHRYS: But it's still not to late is it, from
your point of view if the ceasefire were to be called at - I don't know - at
five seconds to two tomorrow?
SPRING: Well, we would prefer it, obviously, it
was called before that, but I do think if the ceasefire is reinstated before
the opening of the talks, that we should make every provision for Sinn Fein to
be at the table tomorrow afternoon.
HUMPHRYS: So that if it were five to two - I know
that's stretching it a bit - but if it were five to two, you'd say let's open
the door to them?
SPRING: Well, yes I would. I believe we've
spent many years trying to bring about talks which have all the Parties in
Northern Ireland involved so that there'd be inclusive talks. And if there is
a cessation of violence both Governments have made it clear that we would have
Sinn Fein at the table.
HUMPHRYS: Well, Mr Ancram didn't quite make that
clear in this programme a few minutes ago. He suggested that there would have
to be some sort of process of verification before you'd accept the ceasefire.
SPRING: Well, I have-I don't like commenting on
remarks I haven't heard made but what I would say is that I believe very
strongly that it's the position of our government that if a cessation of
violence is restored, that we should provide the opportunities for Sinn Fein to
be at the table, and that of course is coupled with a statement from Mr Adams
some weeks ago that Sinn Fein would sign up to the six Mitchell Principles
without any problems.
HUMPHRYS: Right. So all they would have to do is
say-is for Sinn Fein to say-for the IRA to say the ceasefire is back, for Sinn
Fein to say:We sign up to the Mitchell Principles, and you say:You can sit at
the table?
SPRING: I believe that that would be sufficient,
and it would give us the momentum that we need to start and launch the
all-Party talks, with all of the Parties at the table including Sinn Fein.
HUMPHRYS: However, if they don't do what we have
just said, if there is no ceasefire between now and two o'clock tomorrow the
talks should go ahead without Sinn Fein. And, you have said they should do
that, because no Party can have a veto on progress. But isn't the reality that
there can be no progress without Sinn Fein there?
SPRING: No, I don't accept that. My preference
of course is that Sinn Fein would be there. If there is no ceasefire declared
before tomorrow at two o'clock then the obvious will happen, they will not be
there. But notwithstanding that, there is a great deal of work that can be
done between the SDLP representing the Nationalist population and the Unionist
Parties, and I believe we should set down to do that, starting at two o'clock
tomorrow afternoon.
HUMPHRYS: You Special Advisor, Fergus Finlay,has
said that without Sinn Fein the talks aren't worth a penny candle.
SPRING: Ultimately we need Sinn Fein at the
table if we're going to solve the overall problem, including the
decommissioning of weapons, and that's a fact of life. But, I also believe
very strongly that we need to get momentum, we need to establish trust and
confidence between the Constitutional Parties as they're presently defined.
And, we should start that on the- Monday afternoon as it's now scheduled.
HUMPHRYS: But the principal objective of these
talks - and we've said it over and over again - is to bring about a lasting
peace. How can you do that without Sinn Fein?.
SPRING: Well we have, as I said John, there's a
lot of trust and confidence and work to be done between the Constitutional
Parties, between the Parties that will be represented there tomorrow. I
believe we should establish momentum, and we should start on that work as we
have now proposed to do. Hopefully, Sinn Fein can join with us, and if
they're not there tomorrow I would hope that within a reasonably short of
period of time that they can make the decisions that are necessary and be at
the table representing their mandate.
HUMPHRYS: And the minute they say: ceasefire, you
say: Come along. So if they were to say that on Tuesday, if they were to say
that on Tuesday week, you would say:Okay, come along?
SPRING: Certainly. What we-The Governments have
made it very clear over the last number of months that we're looking for a
reinstatement of the ceasefire, and without any further preconditions or
inhibitions then I believe Sinn Fein should be at the table.
HUMPHRYS: You're not are you, beginning to run out
of patience a little with Sinn Fein?
SPRING: No, I'm not. We have put a great deal
of work into this process since the Government was originally formed back in
1993, a great deal of work, a great deal of effort and a great deal of energy
from all involved, and I think that what we need to do now is have the
determination between the two Governments and the Parties who are at the talks
to see this through. It is the best opportunity we've had in the last
twenty-five years to bring about a settlement in Northern Ireland, and I think
we should leave no stone unturned to achieve that.
HUMPHRYS: But it's precisely because you've put in
all that effort that I ask the question, and suggest that perhaps you're
getting a bit frustrated now?
SPRING: No John, I'm not getting frustrated, I
have to say to you, because we all knew from the start that this would be a
long process. And, even starting tomorrow afternoon at the next phase it's
going to take a considerable period of time before we bring about the agreement
between the Parties in Northern Ireland.
HUMPHRYS: You have, as you say, done a great deal
to try to bring Sinn Fein into the process. In the course of that, though, you
have alienated the Unionists. Does that worry you?
SPRING: It..I Certainly, if I felt we had
alienated the Unionists it would worry me because we've spent a great deal of
time trying to open up discussion and dialogue with the Unionist Parties. It
hasn't been as successful as we would have wished but I would hope that
starting from tomorrow afternoon that we have the opportunity of building a
relationship between the Unionist representatives and the Government of the
Republic of Ireland. There is no reason in my opinion why that shouldn't
happen.
HUMPHRYS: But, you already have a problem here
don't you, because David Trimble and Mr Taylor of the Ulster Unionists are
saying: basically, we don't like Mitchell - we don't want him chairing the
talks?
SPRING: Well, I have difficulty understanding
why anybody - anybody who wants to see progress made in Northern Ireland
objecting to George Mitchell. George Mitchell has shown his capacity, his
impartiality and his independence in the report he and his colleagues did on
the decommissioning question. And, as many of the newspapers are saying today,
he came through that enhancing his reputation, whereas most people would have
failed. And I honestly and genuinely believe that over the next number of
months, George Mitchell will show his capacity and prove to people who doubt
him that he has the independence that is necessary to make a very substantial
contribution to our talks.
HUMPHRYS: Well, he hasn't proved it yet, has he?
Mr Taylor said, I think, just this morning, that he hasn't proved that he is
starting from an independent position. They regard him as an Irish-American,
who's Party-pre.
SPRING: George Mitchell is an Irish-American. I
think, that's a fact of life but I don't see why anybody should object to that.
We have been tremendously assisted - I say 'we', both Governments - and the
Parties in Northern Ireland by the resources that have been made available to
us from Washington over the last number of years. And, Washington, led by
President Clinton, has lent out a hand of friendship to both the Nationalist
and the Unionist communities in a very evenhanded way. And I'm sure that
George Mitchell will do the same to both communities and that will be shown
very clearly over the next couple of weeks.
HUMPHRYS: Well, perhaps it will and perhaps it
won't. If during the talks tomorrow, or indeed even the next few days, David
Trimble and his colleagues say: no we will not accept Senator Mitchell, as the
Chairman of the plenaries, what then happens as far as you're concerned?
SPRING: John, we're into a hypothetical
situation here.
HUMPHRYS: Well, not very hypothetical, is it?
SPRING: Well we are to an extent. Now, we
should be going there tomorrow at two o'clock, bringing with us leadership,
goodwill and determination to make these talks successful. And I will be
saying that in my contributions when I get to speak at the opening of talks.
We should all be setting out in a determined fashion, to work with the
resources that are available, including what the resources of the two
governments and, of course, the resources from the United States. And, George
Mitchell, as I said, is coming here as an independent man, with a very high
track record and a very good record of work and experience in international
politics and he should be accepted on that basis.
HUMPHRYS: But as far as you're concerned, what's
the technical position? If the Unionists say: We've heard what the Senator has
to say, we don't want him. Can they say..can they demand somebody else to
chair the talks?
SPRING: I think, that given it's taken us almost
four years to get to this stage, I think, that that would be very unwise and a
retrograde step. And, I would certainly hope and I would be quite optimistic
that over the next number of days that George Mitchell can show these people
that he has the capacity to carry out his functions. And, I understand that
some positive noises have been emerging from the Unionist Parties that met him
in the course of yesterday afternoon and I hope that will see us through
tomorrow as well.
HUMPHRYS: Well, not very positive noises this
morning, as I say and I take your point that it might be unwise. But, do they
have the power to say: we don't want the Senator?
SPRING: No. Both Governments have put forward
the formulation, the scenario for the opening of talks - that's very clear,
that's very fixed and I have to say to you that I would be confident that that
would see us through tomorrow.
HUMPHRYS: Do you agree that the real talks, the
substantive talks will not begin until there has been some agreement on
decommissioning weapons. And, in that case, again, if you agree with that, you
can't go anywhere without Sinn Fein, can you?
SPRING: Well, we have set out and we've all
accepted as far as I'm concerned - the British Government and the Irish
Government have accepted very clearly - the Mitchell Report. I have always
regretted the fact that when Mitchell was published, back in February, that it
should have been put on the table straight away, the Parties should have been
brought in, and we should have set about getting there signing up, so to
speak and their agreement on the Mitchell Report. I believe the Mitchell
Report will see us through these talks. We have a very clear formulation in
paragraphs Thirty-Four and Thirty-Five of the Report, in relation to dealing
with decommissioning - and if we stick to what Mitchell has proposed, then I
believe we can deal with political progress and we can deal with progress on
decommissioning and there's no reason why we shouldn't be able to do that.
HUMPHRYS: It's very hard to see how you can get
anywhere on decommissioning if one of the Parties that holds most of the
weapons is not at those talks?
SPRING: John, that's a fact. I mean, I accept
that and we want that Party at the talks and I would be hopeful that if they're
not there tomorrow we can get them in the very near future.
HUMPHRYS: The impression one has is that you are
much more concerned at the absence of Sinn Fein than is the British Government
- the potential absence of Sinn Fein I should say I suppose.
SPRING: Well I don't know what leads you to that
conclusion. I mean we all want all of the parties, we want the Loyalists, the
small Loyalist Parties at the table, they're going to be at the table but they
obviously will not deal with the decommissioning issue when there's nobody
there to deal with reciprocal decommissioning on the Nationalist Republican
side. So we need all the parties there to have the ultimate solution, the
ultimate conclusions for an agreement but not withstanding the absence of Sinn
Fein tomorrow there is no reason why we can't start the work of reconciliation
between the Nationalist and Unionist populations in Northern Ireland.
HUMPHRYS: You have appealed to Sinn Fein even at
the late hour and I assume you are still appealing to them even at this late
hour to come along to the talks. Is there anything else you and perhaps the
British Government as well, can do to encourage them?
SPRING: I do not believe that there is anything
else that can be offered. We have carried out our work and the agreement we
reached in London back on Thursday and the formulation that we have offered I
believe is the best that can be achieved between the two governments. I also
believe, very firmly, that it has everything that Sinn Fein should be looking
for in terms of being at the talks on Monday or whenever they can make their
own internal decision to do so.
HUMPHRYS: So your message to Sinn Fein this
morning is?
SPRING: The message is that it's time to make
the decision, it's time to be at the table, they've wanted to be at All Party
talks, we have created the talks and the atmosphere for talks. Now it's time
to get to the table.
HUMPHRYS: You've said that the talks..there are
serious problems. Do you believe at this stage that what your Prime Minister
Mr Bruton told us in February was true, that is that holding the elections
prior to these talks would jeopardise the whole process, pour petrol on the
flames as he put it?
SPRING: The elections have come and gone without
any great difficulty. The elections have polarised Northern Ireland which was
one of the worries that we had as the Taoiseach expressed at that time. They
haven't told us anything new, other than perhaps the fact that Sinn Fein have
increased their support on the basis that they want to get into a peace
process, want to get into negotiations and that in itself is probably a good
thing. But there is nothing particularly new that has emerged from the
elections. We are now going into talks and we could have perhaps gone into
those talks without the elections which were not of any great consequence.
HUMPHRYS: Dick Spring, thanks very much for
joining us.
SPRING: Thank you.
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