Interview with Dafydd Wigley






 
 
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                                 ON THE RECORD 
                                                         
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1                                 DATE:   7.7.96
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JOHN HUMPHRYS:                         Have we reached the stage in British 
politics now where the problem for politicians is not so much how to react to 
the government but how to react to Labour?  This week we'll be reporting from 
Wales where the Welsh Nationalists are struggling with Labour's plans for a 
referendum before some sort of Welsh Assembly.  I'll be asking the Leader of 
Plaid Cymru, Dafydd Wigley: what's the point of his party now? 

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HUMPHRYS:                              Dafydd Wigley, the Labour Party, a 
Labour Government would give Wales some sort of devolution.  There isn't any 
point in Plaid Cymru any longer is there? 
 
DAFYDD WIGLEY:                         Yes there's every point and there's more 
point after what has happened during the last two weeks, where the Labour Party 
in London have imposed a policy on the Labour Party in Wales and told them that 
the referendum they're preparing will be a Yes/No choice between a status quo 
and an executive assembly, which was rejected in 1979.  Now we as a Party 
believe that we ought to have a Parliament with law-making powers, with direct 
links through to the European Union and that we ought to be able to take full 
responsibility for our own lives and not just have a talking shop in Cardiff.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Alright, but that option is not going to 
be offered on that referendum, so how will you vote? 
 
WIGLEY:                                There is a lot of time before that 
referendum takes place.  We have a campaign leading through to the General 
Election and Plaid Cymru's central plank in that campaign is going to be to 
enable Wales to have a real choice.   Without an additional question on that 
referendum it is going to be a pretty meaningless one and not only will Plaid 
Cymru voters be disenfranchised but also the Liberal voters and indeed many 
Labour voters would like to see the Parliament in Cardiff having law-making 
powers, at least over those matters that currently come under the Secretary of 
State for Wales.  So we'll be campaigning hard on that and after the General 
Election when a Bill comes forward in Parliament for a referendum.  We would 
want to see at least one additional question put to the people of Wales.  
People of Scotland are getting a second question.  The people of Wales should 
have one about a law-making Parliament.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well I've no doubt you would want to see 
it but you ain't going to get it.  
 
WIGLEY:                                Well, time will tell.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So therefore what are you going to do? 
 
WIGLEY:                                Time will tell.  If we do find ourselves 
in a referendum campaign with only a choice between the status quo and an 
unacceptable assembly then we will campaign on our full policy.  It will be a 
matter for the people then to judge how or whether indeed they vote in the 
referendum.  That is not our choice.  We'd much prefer the people of Wales to 
be enabled to indicate where they want to go.  After all, this is a 
consultative referendum.  The Labour Party have said they want an inclusive 
system of government in Wales.  If they believe in an inclusive system then 
all the people of Wales should have an opportunity to express an opinion in 
that referendum. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Right, but, so you would offer no 
guidance then?  In the event that your question wasn't on the referendum, you'd 
offer no guidance.  That would be a cop-out. 
 
WIGLEY:                                No we will be campaigning hard why the 
Parliament that we want should have the powers that we believe are essential. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Oh, I understand that. 
 
WIGLEY:                                At the end of the day, at the end of the 
day when we know exactly what Labour are going to offer then we'll be able to 
give more guidance possibly.  But you see there are two questions that haven't 
been resolved so far: one that I touched on, that is the exact nature of the 
question of the referendum and the second is what exactly will Labour's 
proposals be.  They've been changing at the rate of knots over recent weeks. 
They now say they're going to have Proportionl Representation, something that 
we welcome very much.  I believe that if they face the reality they are going 
to have to go down the road to have law-making powers.  If they do that then 
of course, our attitude could be a little different.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Alright, but if they don't do that, if 
they stay where they are at the moment - and there has never been the 
slightest indication that there would be a Welsh Parliament with law-making 
powers under a Labour Government - then, what do you do?  What do you recommend 
your supporters to do? 
 
WIGLEY:                                Can I make it absolutely clear.  There's 
one thing that we will not do and that is we will not go down the same road as 
in 1979.  At that time the Labour Party had a policy that's quite similar to 
what they're proposing now, an Executive Assembly.  We campaigned for that in 
the referendum.  We found the Labour Party, led by people like Neil Kinnock, 
campaigning against and we were going around the streets of Wales advocating 
Labour's policy - not our own policy - and Labour Party people coming after us 
telling the public to vote No.  Now, never again, under any circumstances am I 
or my Party going to find ourselves in that position.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Ah well then you've told me what you'll 
do. 
 
WIGLEY:                                Yes, most certainly we will not be 
campaigning Yes for an assembly of the same sort as was put forward in 1979. 
And if the Labour Party are looking for a consensus for Constitutional change 
in Wales, they are going to have to build a better model than they put forward 
in 1979 and they would have to apply themselves to that pretty quickly. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Right, so what we might see is the 
extraordinary spectacle of you recommending a No vote, if the question is: Do 
you support an assembly for Wales.  And then going through or having 
previously gone through the lobby in the House of Commons with the 
Conservatives. 
 
WIGLEY:                                We don't rule out any option at this 
stage.  We don't know what Labour are going to be offering. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But you just ruled out an option. 
 
WIGLEY:                                And when we do we'll make up our minds. 
But I'm making it absolutely clear, beyond any doubt at all, we will not as a 
Party be trapped as we were in the 1970s.  You imagine it, the Labour Party 
campaigning against their own Party's policies around the streets of Wales.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But, that was then. 
 
WIGLEY:                                There are indications that that's 
happening again, that Tony Blair is going to allow some of the Labour rebels in 
Wales - and we're seeing them raising their heads again in the last couple of 
weeks - they're going to campaign against the Labour Party's policies. That is 
not acceptable.  You see if we're going to have an assembly or a Parliament 
it's got to make a difference to the people of Wales, a difference in terms of 
Education and Health policy.  It's got to defend Wales against policies that 
a Conservative Government might impose from London.  And under the proposals 
as they stand at the moment, what we're going to have is a Scottish Parliament 
that could make its own Education laws but an assembly in Wales that 
couldn't.  And, when we have a Redwood led government coming in in the year
2001/2002 that passing Acts to privatise Education being imposed on Wales and 
the Welsh Assembly being able to do nothing about it.  Unless we get law-making 
powers we will not be able to protect the people of Wales.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So in other words you are prepared to 
allow to happen what happened seventeen years ago, resulted in - well, you know 
what it resulted in!  There's hardly any point in me saying it!   
 
WIGLEY:                                Seventeen years ago, we had what was 
virtually, a civil war in Wales.  We had families divided, we had politicians 
divided, we had people fighting against each other and we got to the worst 
of all worlds.  And indeed, the report that was brought out by the Constitution 
Unit, published a couple of weeks ago in London, suggested that the Executive 
Assembly, of a sort put forward in 1979 - and which Labour are still running 
with - is the worst of all worlds.  It's the appearance of having some sort of 
say in Wales but, in reality, no power at all.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              I thought the worst of all worlds was 
what you've got now, which is what you describe as a quangocracy, run by the 
Tories, with absolutely no true representation in Wales.  This is, surely, the 
worst of all Welsh Assembly, elected by Wales people at least would be a 
move in your direction.  And, for you to say we will have no more part in that, 
whatsoever, it's going to look very odd indeed.  You'll be cast into the outer 
darkness - not for another seventeen years - for ever. 
 
WIGLEY:                                That assembly will only be of use to the 
people of Wales if it can make a difference and if, indeed, the laws within 
which it has to act, not only in terms of Health and Education, but in terms of 
Employment, in terms of Environment and Agriculture.  And, all Acts that are 
laid down by London, imposed on Wales - although Scotland and Northern Ireland 
will be able to make up their own laws - then the assembly will not be able to 
make a difference.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But it would be an improvement on what 
you've got now, surely? 
 
WIGLEY:                                There's no point in having an assembly 
that nobody with any ambition in politics would want to go to.  It would become 
a retirement home for elderly Labour Councillors from the Valley areas in 
Glamorgan and Gwent.  That is not going to deliver the change that Wales 
needs.  Neither is it going to be credible in European terms and that's the 
other big change since 1979.  There's a need for Wales to have a profile in 
Brussels.  A profile that not only small countries, like Ireland and Luxembourg 
have, but even small nations like Catalonia have their representatives in 
Brussels, to speak up for them.    We need a Parliament that has that 
credibility.  Labour's assembly doesn't give us that.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But look, the people of Wales have had 
their opportunity for many, many years now to vote for that, by voting for 
Plaid Cymru and what we saw in the last General Election was that Plaid 
Cymru got nationwide throughout Wales a derisory vote.  You have four MPs and 
those only in the Welsh speaking areas of Wales.  So, they've had the 
opportunity to go down the road that you want to go down.  They have rejected 
it.  They're now being offered something else and you are rejecting that 
because you say it's not everything.  Well, of course, it's not everything but 
it's something. 
 
WIGLEY:                                Plaid Cymru, at present, stands 
ahead of both the Conservatives and the Liberals in the opinion polls and 
also in the elections that we had - the local elections.  We have almost as 
many councillors as the Tories and Liberals put together.  We came well ahead 
of the Conservatives in the European Election and we've been standing at about 
18-19% in opinion polls.  Yes, we're some way behind the Labour Party. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Some way behind? 
 
WIGLEY:                                But, I'll tell you.  Since Tony Blair 
has shot the Labour Party in Wales in the foot and disregarded their opinions 
in coming to Labour's policy, we've seen a swing to Plaid Cymru.  We saw it 
only last Thursday in an election in Carmarthenshire.  A nine per cent swing to 
Plaid Cymru, in one of our target seats and I think, that is going to happen in 
the General Election.  We're going to see a massive increase in our vote, an 
increase in our numbers of Members of Parliament and if the Labour Party still 
insists on treating Wales as a second class nation, giving Scotland an elected 
Parliament, but giving Wales nothing more than a talking shop, then, in the 
following election, we're going to take them to the cleaners.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well I have heard that before with the 
greatest possible respect. 
 
WIGLEY:                                Watch this space. 
 
HUMPHRYS                               Well, I've watched this space for many 
years and we've heard the same sort of thing from the Liberal Democrats and 
before them the Labour Party.  It's fine to do well in a local election, 
particularly in your own areas.  The by-election that you referred to was in 
Camarthenshire.  So that's not exactly the area where you have to make your 
great breakthrough.  The reality is that you may be out in the wilderness for 
many, many many years to come, and here at least in the Welsh Assembly you have 
something that heads vaguely in your direction. 
 
WIGLEY:                                I think the interesting thing will be 
how Labour people in the traditional Labour areas, the old coalfield areas, 
start reacting when they find that they have a neo-Conservative government 
under Tony Blair in office.  Whether they then realise that if we're going to 
have the radical policies we need to deal with the social problems and economic 
problems in Wales we must have our own parliament.  At that stage the forty per 
cent vote that we're getting in Local Government elections in places like the 
Rhondda and the Cynon Valley, that will come through into a vote in General 
Elections.  And, that is when, I believe, we'll have the leverage to make sure 
that we do get a real Parliament.  You see, the difference between Scotland and 
Wales to some extent is this.  The SNP have been getting a rating of 
twenty-five per cent, even up to thirty per cent in General Elections.  
When Plaid Cymru get that support that's when Wales will get the same sort of 
Parliament as Scotland is getting.  It's only pressure from ourselves that will 
make sure Labour deliver it. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But you have offered radical policies 
before.  You have offered the people of the Welsh Valleys, the people of 
Cardiff an alternative in the past, in the Parliamentary Elections, General 
Elections and they have said: Thanks but no thanks.   What they want, may be, 
is much more attention paid to the Welsh culture.  Now you've got that, you've 
won your battle over the Welsh language - very effective it has been too.  But 
that it seems, is as much as the people of Wales want. 
 
WIGLEY:                                Yes, it's true that a lot of progress 
has been made with regard to the Welsh language and that's why in the 1997-98 
period it will be very different to 1979.  Then there was a perception that the 
referendum was about language and culture to some extent.  Now, it's going to 
be a referendum about democracy and what we want to make sure in that 
referendum is that it is a democratic referendum with the opportunties for the 
people of Wales to show where they want to go.  There have been two changes 
since 1979.  One is the fact that we've had four Secretaries of State for 
Wales in succession that haven't even been Welsh MPs.  It's a Governor General 
type of Government type of system and that hasn't been something that's 
delivered the goods or given us confidence that we have a voice in London to 
speak up on our behalf.  
 
                                       The second change has been the growth of 
the European Union.  That now takes so many decisions in Brussels and 
Strasbourg and we must have a voice from Wales out there.  If we're going to 
get the same sort of bargain as Ireland has had and you know the Republic of 
Ireland now has a higher GDP per head than does Wales.  Last year it overtook 
Wales.  That is because they've got an effective system of Government, a voice 
in Europe and that's what we've got to get in Wales as well. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well yes perhaps but that has been on 
offer, it has been turned down, you have achieved somethings, as I say.  Isn't 
it about time, in reality, that you said: We've done a large part of what we 
set out to do but now it's about time that we said: Look, we'll back Labour's 
strategy, we will accept that we are a pressure group and that's about it. 
 
WIGLEY:                                With respect you've suggested that our 
alternative, our proposals, have been turned down.  They haven't because they 
haven't had an opportunity in a referendum to be considered by the people of 
Wales. 
 
HUMPRHYS:                              You've had General Elections.  That's a 
referendum. 
 
WIGLEY:                                The Labour Party have indicated that 
they believe that a referendum must be held.  Because at a General Election you 
can't tell whether the people are voting for one strand or another strand of 
detailed policy.  Right, if that is the case, let's have a referendum that can 
allow the people to differentiate whether they want the status quo, whether 
they want a powerless assembly, whether they want a federal parliament as the 
Liberals are offering or whether we want full self-Government in Europe as 
Plaid Cymru is offering.  Now given a fair referendum, you would see that as a 
means of identifying what the people of Wales want, what road they want to go 
down constitutionally and we would work with all interested parties to ensure 
the will of the people of Wales was then implemented. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Dafydd Wigley, thanks very much indeed.  
 
                                       And I was speaking to Dafydd Wigley a 
bit earlier this morning.  And that's it for this summer.  We'll be back in 
September. Goodbye. 
 
 
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